4 ms·

I agree, and would add that Brett Victor is pointing out what he perceives to be valid flaws with the method Khan Academny uses to teach programming (live codin

I agree, and would add that Brett Victor is pointing out what he perceives to be valid flaws with the method Khan Academny uses to teach programming (live coding environments, javascript, and processing languages, which other teaching products happen to use as well). He is not criticizing Khan Academy as a whole directly, as the quality or lack thereof of Khan Academy itself is never brought into question or even discussed.

adambratt 14y ago
Totally. People are too quick to jump on the "he's ranting" band wagon.
russelluresti 14y ago
> Brett Victor is pointing out what he perceives to be valid flaws Where are the numbers? Where's the testing? Where's the proof that his proposed changes are more effective in teaching a new programmer? Validity comes through numbers, proof, and evidence.
- kamaal 14y ago
  You could say say something similar about UI design of things like iPhone. Some times you have to show people what they want. And then when they see, they would know how awesome things are. Not all projects are started after research and data. That way many projects would never start.
  - russelluresti 14y ago
    This doesn't make sense, because the UI design of the iPhone WAS tested. They did a ton of research into their solutions. They did exactly the type of testing I'm advocating.
    - c141charlie 14y ago
      I often hear people talk up how the iPhone was never tested in usability labs with non-apple employees. Then I hear that the iPhone was heavily tested. What actually happened? Does anyone know definitively whether or not it was tested by non-Apple employees before launch?
- ht_th 14y ago
  That's a positivist perspective on research and knowledge. While your perspective on validity might be fitting for quantitative research, for an exploratory expose and kinds of qualitative research some look for other measures of validity and quality. There is an enormous amount of research (papers) on this topic, just look for "qualitative research validity". As it is more a matter of perspective, there often seem some incommensurability creeping into these discussions. In this case, I believe that a professional/experienced educator who has tried teaching introductory programming can, given their own experiences, relate, understand, and build on the concepts in the article to improve their own teaching and understanding of teaching/learning introductory programming. This is sometimes called communicative generalization (see Smaling: http://www.ualberta.ca/~iiqm/backissues/2_1/html/smaling.html http://www.ualberta.ca/~iiqm/backissues/2_1/html/smaling.htm... ). For example, to me, as a computer science teacher in high school, I recognize a lot of the issues discussed in the article. Reading the article I am able to link these issues and solutions to my experiences in class and decide to what extent it is credible and trustworthy. Furthermore, and more importantly, I can more easily apply results this kind of research in my daily practice than I can results of (rigorous) quantitative research as that almost always is taken out of context and ' clinically' due to fixing variables that aren't fixed in real life situations (i.e. the classroom, the students (holistic), environment).
  - russelluresti 14y ago
    I'm well aware of qualitative research, but he doesn't even have that. And, while I agree that you can translate and interpret the major themes, all you have done at that point is recognize that you have a similar problem and have formed a hypothesis that needs to be tested. You cannot assume that your method of fixing the identified problem will actually work until it is tested.
    - ht_th 14y ago
      True. On the other hand, it allows the professional/expert to have a good idea if it might work. And, if so, if it is worth testing out or not. In my opinion the value of this kind of research and/or informed opinion pieces is local in scope and should be treated as such. Don't base your educational policy on this kind of research, for that you'd better look for quantitative and, preferably, longitudinal studies.
- ArekDymalski 14y ago
  You can find proof in numerous publications from related fields like cognitive psychology and pedagogy. But don't expect the author to gather them for you. He already did amazing job.
  - russelluresti 14y ago
    I disagree with the idea that proof of those concepts translates perfectly across all situations. You have to test something before you know if it works or not.
- russelluresti 14y ago
  It's amazing how many people have a problem with the idea of testing a solution. I'm simply saying that assumptions need to be challenged and assertions need data to back them up. I'm not saying any of this ideas are inherently wrong, I'm saying they're unproven. If you down-vote simply because I believe a person should offer proof when they make a claim, you're falling victim to your own biases.
  - wamatt 14y ago
    >"I'm simply saying that assumptions need to be challenged and assertions need data to back them up. " I hope you have a study to backup that assertion.. :p (Hint: not all knowledge is empirical)
  - laughinghan 14y ago
    You are not being downvoted because "people have a problem with the idea of testing a solution". You are being downvoted because your tone suggests you categorically dismissed a groundbreaking project because its introductory article wasn't a scholarly work bristling with citations. "Numbers, proof, evidence" tend to be marks of an excellent article. But an incredible amount of work clearly went into this article, and it presents powerful ideas in a novel and original light; it is highly valuable and fascinating in its own right, even if it is weak in certain areas that academic papers tend to be strong in. Yes, citations would help tease apart questionable assumptions from reliable ones. Yes, thorough testing would help lend more credence many of the ideas. Yes, the article is imperfect and could be better in a multitude more ways. Still, the article is highly valuable and fascinating. Have you heard of the term "strawman argument"? That's what you're doing when you say "It's amazing how many people [are completely unreasonable]". Most people are quite reasonable. If a large community is downvoting you, you should strongly consider the possibility that you, in fact, are the one being unreasonable.
    - russelluresti 14y ago
      First, this isn't Bret's introductory article on this topic. As far as I know, his first talk about this came in January of this year (watch the Inventing on Principle video on Vimeo). Granted, 7-8 months isn't a super long time, but he has never built/tested his ideas, yet asserts them as if they were proven facts. Also, I know why I'm being down-voted. Bret is an inspiring person. His Vimeo talk, specifically, is very inspiring. He acts on principle, he believes strongly in his ideals, and there are many people who agree with him. So, the people who like Bret are people who align themselves with his ideals. So, when I challenge his vision by asking for data, people who read it feel like I'm challenging them, personally - like I'm challenging their beliefs (because, well, I am - I'm asking them to prove their beliefs). People respond to that kind of challenge in a negative way. It'd be like if you tried to argue the ideas of Steve Jobs with an Apple fan - they're just not going to listen to you, no matter how solid your arguments are. I, myself, agree strongly with Bret's principles. He's right that developers need better tools and we need a better way to teach programming to people. However, I try to divorce myself from those emotions and still look for facts and evidence. If someone claims A is better than B, I will look for proof, even if my "gut instinct" tells me that they're right. I very well believe Bret could be right, but that doesn't mean we should all just assume he is without evidence. My point here is that asking someone to give evidence for their arguments is completely acceptable. But, when you challenge the ideas of someone feel emotionally invested in (because their beliefs and ideals are being challenged), you receive negative feedback. Thus, the down-votes. It's actually a very interesting study in how people can be loyal to someone even without evidence of that person being right.

adambratt 14y ago

Totally. People are too quick to jump on the "he's ranting" band wagon.

russelluresti 14y ago

> Brett Victor is pointing out what he perceives to be valid flaws Where are the numbers? Where's the testing? Where's the proof that his proposed changes are more effective in teaching a new programmer? Validity comes through numbers, proof, and evidence.

kamaal 14y ago
You could say say something similar about UI design of things like iPhone. Some times you have to show people what they want. And then when they see, they would know how awesome things are. Not all projects are started after research and data. That way many projects would never start.
- russelluresti 14y ago
  This doesn't make sense, because the UI design of the iPhone WAS tested. They did a ton of research into their solutions. They did exactly the type of testing I'm advocating.
  - c141charlie 14y ago
    I often hear people talk up how the iPhone was never tested in usability labs with non-apple employees. Then I hear that the iPhone was heavily tested. What actually happened? Does anyone know definitively whether or not it was tested by non-Apple employees before launch?
ht_th 14y ago
That's a positivist perspective on research and knowledge. While your perspective on validity might be fitting for quantitative research, for an exploratory expose and kinds of qualitative research some look for other measures of validity and quality. There is an enormous amount of research (papers) on this topic, just look for "qualitative research validity". As it is more a matter of perspective, there often seem some incommensurability creeping into these discussions. In this case, I believe that a professional/experienced educator who has tried teaching introductory programming can, given their own experiences, relate, understand, and build on the concepts in the article to improve their own teaching and understanding of teaching/learning introductory programming. This is sometimes called communicative generalization (see Smaling: http://www.ualberta.ca/~iiqm/backissues/2_1/html/smaling.html http://www.ualberta.ca/~iiqm/backissues/2_1/html/smaling.htm... ). For example, to me, as a computer science teacher in high school, I recognize a lot of the issues discussed in the article. Reading the article I am able to link these issues and solutions to my experiences in class and decide to what extent it is credible and trustworthy. Furthermore, and more importantly, I can more easily apply results this kind of research in my daily practice than I can results of (rigorous) quantitative research as that almost always is taken out of context and ' clinically' due to fixing variables that aren't fixed in real life situations (i.e. the classroom, the students (holistic), environment).
- russelluresti 14y ago
  I'm well aware of qualitative research, but he doesn't even have that. And, while I agree that you can translate and interpret the major themes, all you have done at that point is recognize that you have a similar problem and have formed a hypothesis that needs to be tested. You cannot assume that your method of fixing the identified problem will actually work until it is tested.
  - ht_th 14y ago
    True. On the other hand, it allows the professional/expert to have a good idea if it might work. And, if so, if it is worth testing out or not. In my opinion the value of this kind of research and/or informed opinion pieces is local in scope and should be treated as such. Don't base your educational policy on this kind of research, for that you'd better look for quantitative and, preferably, longitudinal studies.
ArekDymalski 14y ago
You can find proof in numerous publications from related fields like cognitive psychology and pedagogy. But don't expect the author to gather them for you. He already did amazing job.
- russelluresti 14y ago
  I disagree with the idea that proof of those concepts translates perfectly across all situations. You have to test something before you know if it works or not.
russelluresti 14y ago
It's amazing how many people have a problem with the idea of testing a solution. I'm simply saying that assumptions need to be challenged and assertions need data to back them up. I'm not saying any of this ideas are inherently wrong, I'm saying they're unproven. If you down-vote simply because I believe a person should offer proof when they make a claim, you're falling victim to your own biases.
- wamatt 14y ago
  >"I'm simply saying that assumptions need to be challenged and assertions need data to back them up. " I hope you have a study to backup that assertion.. :p (Hint: not all knowledge is empirical)
- laughinghan 14y ago
  You are not being downvoted because "people have a problem with the idea of testing a solution". You are being downvoted because your tone suggests you categorically dismissed a groundbreaking project because its introductory article wasn't a scholarly work bristling with citations. "Numbers, proof, evidence" tend to be marks of an excellent article. But an incredible amount of work clearly went into this article, and it presents powerful ideas in a novel and original light; it is highly valuable and fascinating in its own right, even if it is weak in certain areas that academic papers tend to be strong in. Yes, citations would help tease apart questionable assumptions from reliable ones. Yes, thorough testing would help lend more credence many of the ideas. Yes, the article is imperfect and could be better in a multitude more ways. Still, the article is highly valuable and fascinating. Have you heard of the term "strawman argument"? That's what you're doing when you say "It's amazing how many people [are completely unreasonable]". Most people are quite reasonable. If a large community is downvoting you, you should strongly consider the possibility that you, in fact, are the one being unreasonable.
  - russelluresti 14y ago
    First, this isn't Bret's introductory article on this topic. As far as I know, his first talk about this came in January of this year (watch the Inventing on Principle video on Vimeo). Granted, 7-8 months isn't a super long time, but he has never built/tested his ideas, yet asserts them as if they were proven facts. Also, I know why I'm being down-voted. Bret is an inspiring person. His Vimeo talk, specifically, is very inspiring. He acts on principle, he believes strongly in his ideals, and there are many people who agree with him. So, the people who like Bret are people who align themselves with his ideals. So, when I challenge his vision by asking for data, people who read it feel like I'm challenging them, personally - like I'm challenging their beliefs (because, well, I am - I'm asking them to prove their beliefs). People respond to that kind of challenge in a negative way. It'd be like if you tried to argue the ideas of Steve Jobs with an Apple fan - they're just not going to listen to you, no matter how solid your arguments are. I, myself, agree strongly with Bret's principles. He's right that developers need better tools and we need a better way to teach programming to people. However, I try to divorce myself from those emotions and still look for facts and evidence. If someone claims A is better than B, I will look for proof, even if my "gut instinct" tells me that they're right. I very well believe Bret could be right, but that doesn't mean we should all just assume he is without evidence. My point here is that asking someone to give evidence for their arguments is completely acceptable. But, when you challenge the ideas of someone feel emotionally invested in (because their beliefs and ideals are being challenged), you receive negative feedback. Thus, the down-votes. It's actually a very interesting study in how people can be loyal to someone even without evidence of that person being right.