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Some of us in Europe are ready to drop Russian oil imports whatever the cost. It's just russian backed populists are ready to rile the crowds for any price incr

Some of us in Europe are ready to drop Russian oil imports whatever the cost. It's just russian backed populists are ready to rile the crowds for any price increase whatsoever and governments have to tread lightly all the time in order not to let power go to all those far right parties who would just buy the cheapest oil coming from anywhere as long as it allows them to remain in power.

jack_tripper 1y ago
>Some of us in Europe are ready to drop Russian oil imports whatever the cost. Translation: "Some of us in Europe are ready to drop drop bread in favor of eating cake, whatever the cost." Easy for you to write cheques that others have to cash. Be careful with such suicidal empathy, as that has second order effects that back-fire in spectacular fashion. That's why you're supposed to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. >It's just russian backed populists are ready to rile the crowds for any price increase whatsoever.. TIL that if you aren't gonna sacrifice yourself for Ukraine and prioritize your family's survival, wanting to have a job, a roof over your head and food on the table, somehow makes you a "Russian populist" now. Interesting logic. You'd think much differently if you or your family would face unemployment, homelessness or malnourishment due to the economic damages caused by a surge in energy costs across the board. Half my immediate friend circle have lost their jobs in the last ~2 years due to the economic situation, my grandma can't afford her bills from her pension without financial support from us, while access public services like healthcare and childcare has only gotten worse, despite us paying more for everything. Not exactly the environment people feel like gutting themselves even further for a foreign country, whichever that may be.
- rwyinuse 1y ago
  Building an energy system dependent on Russian gas is, and always was an idiotic thing to do. I live in Finland, and our energy costs are pretty back to more or less what they used ot be, even though we live next to Russia. I don't know where you're from, but at least Germany's problems run way deeper than their idiotic energy policies. Lack of investment in infrastructure, lack of innovation and all that. Even with cheap energy there's no way German car makers would compete, when Chinese make better EV's for less money. Laziness and lack of innovation is the problem, just like in European IT sector, which just buys everything from America. Also, let's not forget the huge impact Covid spending had on inflation, and in turn interest rates & people's purchasing power. Ukraine war and sanctions against Russia are completely insignificant compared to that blunder. We're living the recession that was supposed to happen in 2020.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
bad_haircut72 1y ago
when the momentum really gets going expect similar agitators rallying against reductions of US influence
spwa4 1y ago
Could you explain? I mean this sounds good, but ... Russia attacked Ukraine in 2014. The current proposal is to stop buying Russian gas by 2028. EVERY year since 2014 the EU bought more Russian gas than the year before until 2023, and it has not yet halved from the peak (measured in money), despite constant grand claims. Russia funds both leftist and rightist parties, in fact, for obvious reasons, they used to only fund leftists not that long ago, before a certain desperation seems to have set in. But now if they are extreme or disruptive in some way, or anti-Nato (like in the recent Irish election) they get Russian cash. The ideology does not matter to Russia anymore, illegal German openly Nazi parties have gotten Russian money (which was new not 10 years ago, as I said they were exclusively leftist before that), they are funding islamist parties, and every Marxist party in Europe gets their money. Also, Russia is still funding international socialist associations for example. Russia's goal is not one ideology above another, but to use democracy as a weapon. And yes, cheaper gas deliveries to countries have been weaponized by Russia in addition to direct corruption, especially in the Balkans.
- jack_tripper 1y ago
  > Russia funds both leftist and rightist parties[...] The ideology does not matter to Russia anymore Because in the last ~10-15 years or so, media and politics in countries like Germany(and US and most of Europe) have made sure to erase national identity and social cohesion, in favor of capitalistic globalism and mass migration, leading to a decline in the middle class standard of living and societal trust, and dividing people against each other instead of against the government/wealthy elite pulling the strings. So when people are divided, they're not gonna want to play ball as a united team in face of adversity, but they vote less and more extreme, get less involved in politics, engage in more tribalistic behavior, etc and now that lack of national cohesion the leaders created, is exploited by Russia and other foreign actors too in their favor.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    > in favor of capitalistic globalism and mass migration, leading to a decline in the middle class standard of living and societal trust, and dividing people against each other instead Would you have preferred the only other choice: a rapidly dropping population that would have killed the economy? I mean that's coming anyway, just 20 years later, so I guess we'll all have an excellent basis for comparison.

jack_tripper 1y ago

>Some of us in Europe are ready to drop Russian oil imports whatever the cost. Translation: "Some of us in Europe are ready to drop drop bread in favor of eating cake, whatever the cost." Easy for you to write cheques that others have to cash. Be careful with such suicidal empathy, as that has second order effects that back-fire in spectacular fashion. That's why you're supposed to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. >It's just russian backed populists are ready to rile the crowds for any price increase whatsoever.. TIL that if you aren't gonna sacrifice yourself for Ukraine and prioritize your family's survival, wanting to have a job, a roof over your head and food on the table, somehow makes you a "Russian populist" now. Interesting logic. You'd think much differently if you or your family would face unemployment, homelessness or malnourishment due to the economic damages caused by a surge in energy costs across the board. Half my immediate friend circle have lost their jobs in the last ~2 years due to the economic situation, my grandma can't afford her bills from her pension without financial support from us, while access public services like healthcare and childcare has only gotten worse, despite us paying more for everything. Not exactly the environment people feel like gutting themselves even further for a foreign country, whichever that may be.

rwyinuse 1y ago
Building an energy system dependent on Russian gas is, and always was an idiotic thing to do. I live in Finland, and our energy costs are pretty back to more or less what they used ot be, even though we live next to Russia. I don't know where you're from, but at least Germany's problems run way deeper than their idiotic energy policies. Lack of investment in infrastructure, lack of innovation and all that. Even with cheap energy there's no way German car makers would compete, when Chinese make better EV's for less money. Laziness and lack of innovation is the problem, just like in European IT sector, which just buys everything from America. Also, let's not forget the huge impact Covid spending had on inflation, and in turn interest rates & people's purchasing power. Ukraine war and sanctions against Russia are completely insignificant compared to that blunder. We're living the recession that was supposed to happen in 2020.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

bad_haircut72 1y ago

when the momentum really gets going expect similar agitators rallying against reductions of US influence

spwa4 1y ago

Could you explain? I mean this sounds good, but ... Russia attacked Ukraine in 2014. The current proposal is to stop buying Russian gas by 2028. EVERY year since 2014 the EU bought more Russian gas than the year before until 2023, and it has not yet halved from the peak (measured in money), despite constant grand claims. Russia funds both leftist and rightist parties, in fact, for obvious reasons, they used to only fund leftists not that long ago, before a certain desperation seems to have set in. But now if they are extreme or disruptive in some way, or anti-Nato (like in the recent Irish election) they get Russian cash. The ideology does not matter to Russia anymore, illegal German openly Nazi parties have gotten Russian money (which was new not 10 years ago, as I said they were exclusively leftist before that), they are funding islamist parties, and every Marxist party in Europe gets their money. Also, Russia is still funding international socialist associations for example. Russia's goal is not one ideology above another, but to use democracy as a weapon. And yes, cheaper gas deliveries to countries have been weaponized by Russia in addition to direct corruption, especially in the Balkans.

jack_tripper 1y ago
> Russia funds both leftist and rightist parties[...] The ideology does not matter to Russia anymore Because in the last ~10-15 years or so, media and politics in countries like Germany(and US and most of Europe) have made sure to erase national identity and social cohesion, in favor of capitalistic globalism and mass migration, leading to a decline in the middle class standard of living and societal trust, and dividing people against each other instead of against the government/wealthy elite pulling the strings. So when people are divided, they're not gonna want to play ball as a united team in face of adversity, but they vote less and more extreme, get less involved in politics, engage in more tribalistic behavior, etc and now that lack of national cohesion the leaders created, is exploited by Russia and other foreign actors too in their favor.
- spwa4 1y ago
  > in favor of capitalistic globalism and mass migration, leading to a decline in the middle class standard of living and societal trust, and dividing people against each other instead Would you have preferred the only other choice: a rapidly dropping population that would have killed the economy? I mean that's coming anyway, just 20 years later, so I guess we'll all have an excellent basis for comparison.