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If we take "Israel" out of the equation to remove much of controversy, i dont understand why wouldnt any actor, especially government actor, take every possible

If we take "Israel" out of the equation to remove much of controversy, i dont understand why wouldnt any actor, especially government actor, take every possible step that their data remains under their sole control. In other words, im curious why would Israel not invest in making sure that the their were storing in third-party vendor clouds was not encrypted at rest and in transit by keys not stored in that cloud. This seems like a matter of national security for any government, not to have their data accessible by other parties at the whims of different jurisdiction where that cloud vendor operates.

nashashmi 1y ago
It would still be very alarming if a democratic country like Australia or European Union taking a step like this where they tell the vendor that it will use its data and service in whatever way it sees fit, and sidestep existing policies those vendors have on the uses of their services and data. Now maybe we can say that Israel is not a democratic system or environment, but then Microsoft would not be wholly desiring to do business serving such an entity, lest they break with US oversight. Israel here told the vendor that whenever there is a gag on them by their government against making Israel aware of their request, the vendor is to secretly transmit a message alerting them..
Dig1t 1y ago
Because it is obviously illegal, violates both the letter and spirit of American law. Also because no other country has the power to get cloud vendors to do this and this one special country will face no consequences (as usual).
- vladgur 1y ago
  From the article: "The demand, which would require Google and Amazon to effectively sidestep legal obligations in countries around the world" "Like other big tech companies, Google and Amazon’s cloud businesses routinely comply with requests from police, prosecutors and security services to hand over customer data to assist investigations." The way I interpret this is Google, Amazon operates in multiple countries under multiple jurisdictions. The security services for any of these countries(including for example Egypt where Google has offices according to....Google), can produce a legal(in Egypt) order requesting Google to produce data of another customer( for example Israeli govt) and Google has to comply or leave Egypt. It seems to me that being under constant threat of your government sensitive data being exposed at the whims of another, potentially adversarial government is not a sustainable way of operating and Im surprised that Israel havent either found ways of storing its infrastructure locally or encrypting it five way to Sunday. This is not a comment on the specific accusation of actions by Israel but for strange reality of being a small-country government and a customer of a multi-national cloud vendor.
tziki 1y ago
It's not irrelevant that it's Israel in question. There's not many countries that have been found to be committing genocide (by UN), are actively involved in a war or where the leaders are sought by ICC.
- vladgur 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - gambiting 1y ago
    For every killed Israeli in the attacks on the 7th of October, Israel went and killed 18 children in retaliation. If that is not genocide then I don't know what is.
    - vladgur 1y ago
      You’re conveniently ignoring that Hamas took 200+ hostages and refused to return them throughout the war. Just because Hamas, build the biggest underground bomb shelter network and refused to let any civilians in it and that that it operated militarily out of civilian infrastructure such as hospitals, causing inevitable casualties by civilians does not make it a genocide. It makes it a terrible war. A war that Hamas started on October 7.
      - gambiting 1y ago
        >>You’re conveniently ignoring that Hamas took 200+ hostages and refused to return them throughout the war. Are you saying what I think you're saying? Holding 200+ hostages justifies killing 18 thousand children? "inevitable casualties" - what a feckless way to call what anyone else can see clearly as a systematic attempt to kill and eradicate a group of people.
      - tdeck 1y ago
        [flagged]
FridayoLeary 1y ago
> If we take "Israel" out of the equation Then this whole story would disintegrate. I am baffled by the manufactured outrage this story is generating. "oh no. <country> is sidestepping the NSA which we loudly proclaim to be evil at every opportunity, and (gasp) imposing their own conditions and bullying gigantic tech companies which are even more evil." This from the same group of people who insist that europe should host their own data.
- Levitz 1y ago
  >Then this whole story would disintegrate. American companies sidestepping law related to international relationships between the US and other countries in order to benefit a foreign state?? That story would disintegrate? In what universe?
  - rendall 1y ago
    > American companies sidestepping law related to international relationships between the US and other countries in order to benefit a foreign state?? Assuming it's even true, there is no side-stepping international relations between the US and other countries. If Egypt were to issue a legal order with a gag clause ordering Amazon to release Israeli data, and Amazon were to signal that fact to Israel, how does this involve the US at all? Seems like you did not understand the story.
moogly 1y ago
> If we take "Israel" out of the equation Conversely, if you don't, it's not hard to understand at all when you consider that there are oodles of American politicians, at all levels, actually publicly declaring that they put Israeli interests over US interests. What's hard to understand about _that_ is that, for some reason, it's not considered pure and simple treason.
gnulinux996 1y ago
> If we take "Israel" out of the equation No, I don't think I will. Since when is talking about Israel controversial?
int_19h 1y ago
> why would Israel not invest in making sure that the their were storing in third-party vendor clouds was not encrypted at rest If it's encrypted in the cloud, it also cannot be processed in the cloud. For AI in particular that kinda defeats the point.

nashashmi 1y ago

It would still be very alarming if a democratic country like Australia or European Union taking a step like this where they tell the vendor that it will use its data and service in whatever way it sees fit, and sidestep existing policies those vendors have on the uses of their services and data. Now maybe we can say that Israel is not a democratic system or environment, but then Microsoft would not be wholly desiring to do business serving such an entity, lest they break with US oversight. Israel here told the vendor that whenever there is a gag on them by their government against making Israel aware of their request, the vendor is to secretly transmit a message alerting them..

Dig1t 1y ago

Because it is obviously illegal, violates both the letter and spirit of American law. Also because no other country has the power to get cloud vendors to do this and this one special country will face no consequences (as usual).

vladgur 1y ago
From the article: "The demand, which would require Google and Amazon to effectively sidestep legal obligations in countries around the world" "Like other big tech companies, Google and Amazon’s cloud businesses routinely comply with requests from police, prosecutors and security services to hand over customer data to assist investigations." The way I interpret this is Google, Amazon operates in multiple countries under multiple jurisdictions. The security services for any of these countries(including for example Egypt where Google has offices according to....Google), can produce a legal(in Egypt) order requesting Google to produce data of another customer( for example Israeli govt) and Google has to comply or leave Egypt. It seems to me that being under constant threat of your government sensitive data being exposed at the whims of another, potentially adversarial government is not a sustainable way of operating and Im surprised that Israel havent either found ways of storing its infrastructure locally or encrypting it five way to Sunday. This is not a comment on the specific accusation of actions by Israel but for strange reality of being a small-country government and a customer of a multi-national cloud vendor.

tziki 1y ago

It's not irrelevant that it's Israel in question. There's not many countries that have been found to be committing genocide (by UN), are actively involved in a war or where the leaders are sought by ICC.

vladgur 1y ago
[flagged]
- gambiting 1y ago
  For every killed Israeli in the attacks on the 7th of October, Israel went and killed 18 children in retaliation. If that is not genocide then I don't know what is.
  - vladgur 1y ago
    You’re conveniently ignoring that Hamas took 200+ hostages and refused to return them throughout the war. Just because Hamas, build the biggest underground bomb shelter network and refused to let any civilians in it and that that it operated militarily out of civilian infrastructure such as hospitals, causing inevitable casualties by civilians does not make it a genocide. It makes it a terrible war. A war that Hamas started on October 7.
    - gambiting 1y ago
      >>You’re conveniently ignoring that Hamas took 200+ hostages and refused to return them throughout the war. Are you saying what I think you're saying? Holding 200+ hostages justifies killing 18 thousand children? "inevitable casualties" - what a feckless way to call what anyone else can see clearly as a systematic attempt to kill and eradicate a group of people.
    - tdeck 1y ago
      [flagged]

FridayoLeary 1y ago

> If we take "Israel" out of the equation Then this whole story would disintegrate. I am baffled by the manufactured outrage this story is generating. "oh no. <country> is sidestepping the NSA which we loudly proclaim to be evil at every opportunity, and (gasp) imposing their own conditions and bullying gigantic tech companies which are even more evil." This from the same group of people who insist that europe should host their own data.

Levitz 1y ago
>Then this whole story would disintegrate. American companies sidestepping law related to international relationships between the US and other countries in order to benefit a foreign state?? That story would disintegrate? In what universe?
- rendall 1y ago
  > American companies sidestepping law related to international relationships between the US and other countries in order to benefit a foreign state?? Assuming it's even true, there is no side-stepping international relations between the US and other countries. If Egypt were to issue a legal order with a gag clause ordering Amazon to release Israeli data, and Amazon were to signal that fact to Israel, how does this involve the US at all? Seems like you did not understand the story.

moogly 1y ago

> If we take "Israel" out of the equation Conversely, if you don't, it's not hard to understand at all when you consider that there are oodles of American politicians, at all levels, actually publicly declaring that they put Israeli interests over US interests. What's hard to understand about _that_ is that, for some reason, it's not considered pure and simple treason.

gnulinux996 1y ago

> If we take "Israel" out of the equation No, I don't think I will. Since when is talking about Israel controversial?

int_19h 1y ago

> why would Israel not invest in making sure that the their were storing in third-party vendor clouds was not encrypted at rest If it's encrypted in the cloud, it also cannot be processed in the cloud. For AI in particular that kinda defeats the point.