7 ms·

Estimating the perceived 'claustrophobia' of New York City's streets (2024)

70 points by jxmorris12 1y ago

flint 1y ago
Obviously, he's never been to Rikers.
afavour 1y ago
This is really fascinating use of city data. I’ve browsed stuff like sidewalk data in the NYC open data portal before and wondered what I could ever do with it. You have a better imagination than me! Particularly happy to see scaffolding listed in there. It’s an absolute blight on the city and some scaffolding remains up for years and years for no good reason. There should be fines for leaving it up.
- colpabar 1y ago
  Good point about the scaffolding. I stayed for a few days in the financial district last year and walking around outside the hotel felt like being underground.
- rkeene2 1y ago
  There is a good reason though, right? My understanding is that local ordinances require very frequent window inspections (following a highly publicized death), so to perform those inspections they need the scaffolding to protect the under-walking pedestrians from the inspectors. Because they are so frequent, it's cheaper to just leave the scaffolding up and take it down and put it up for every inspection. With drones becoming more common and robust, though, it will hopefully soon be easier and faster to do the inspections and so the scaffolding may become cheaper to remove and replace each cycle
  - lokar 1y ago
    The inspection rules are kind of extreme, supported by the people who do the work and the scaffold companies. Once you “start work” (put up the scaffolding) the clock stops. You see buildings with scaffolding for years with little to non actual work.
  - afavour 1y ago
    No, it’s because putting up scaffolding is cheaper than actually performing facade repairs. Inspections are only every five years. https://thehustle.co/originals/why-so-many-new-york-city-sidewalks-are-covered-in-scaffolding https://thehustle.co/originals/why-so-many-new-york-city-sid...
technothrasher 1y ago
As a born and bred country person, I've always found pretty much all cities claustrophobic for me. My son, I guess as part of his youthful rebellion, told me at the age of five that he was going to go to school in NYC, and he followed through on the threat. This past summer we drove down to the Bronx a few times in preparation for his attending Fordham University, and I found the Bronx very uncomfortably busy and loud. Well, this past weekend I went down to parent's weekend at the school, and stayed in Manhattan, which I hadn't been to in at least 25 years. After an evening in Manhattan, I took the train up to the Bronx and suddenly thought, "wow, this is so quiet and nice!" Clearly perspective is very important.
- senkora 1y ago
  Midtown Manhattan is “too much” even for a lot of New Yorkers. I try to minimize my time there.
  - indoordin0saur 1y ago
    I work in Midtown and live in (a still very dense) part of Brooklyn. When I come home in the evenings and come up those subway stairs I always breathe a sigh of relief.
    - rayiner 1y ago
      That’s interesting. When I lived in Manhattan I didn’t mind the density at all. But I was apartment hunting in Brooklyn one day and literally had a panic attack at how chaotic it was. I made it two blocks from the 4/5/6 station (I forget which one) before heading back.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > made it two blocks from the 4/5/6 station (I forget which one) 4 or 5. If you fall asleep on those, you go to Brooklyn or the Bronx. If you fall asleep on the 6, you always wake up in the Bronx. (Well, or City Hall. But then you can get dumplings.)
labrador 1y ago
Mapping the Psychogeography of New York City “map the emotional terrain of the world’s most famous and influential urban center, New York City, and explore the effect of the city’s powerful moods on those who live and work here.” https://urbanomnibus.net/2010/10/you-are-here-mapping-the-psychogeography-of-new-york-city/ https://urbanomnibus.net/2010/10/you-are-here-mapping-the-ps... Psychogeography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography Speed Levitch: The New York City "Grid Plan" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9awJCyjt550 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9awJCyjt550
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
05bmckay 1y ago
Is it terrible that I read the headline and immediately thought they were talking about Claude? I reread it and realized I'm in too deep.
Herring 1y ago
I"m not sure I agree with the setup. He's weighting clutter types based on his personal experience, eg a newsstand (=3) is weighted 20 times higher than a tree (=0.15). It's very subjective, and like the model implies a desolate empty parking lot with no trees is somehow ideal. Important factors like urban vitality, utility, or aesthetic quality are not quantified so easily. If you want to see well-designed cities, look at Europe. Helsinki has both deep integration with nature, and high-quality public services. Denmark does very well with cycling, which improves public health and noise and air quality. Etc. I like to focus on countries that rank highly on the World Happiness Report, and try figure out what they're doing right.
- coldpie 1y ago
  > a desolate empty parking lot with no trees is somehow ideal The author is trying to measure "claustrophobia" specifically, not ideal-ness. An empty parking lot would be less claustrophobic than most other kinds of places, yes. The measured claustrophobia factor appears to be just one part of a larger analysis that resulted in a NYT article, but unfortunately the article isn't linked.
- electroly 1y ago
  An empty parking lot is effectively the gold standard for opposite-of-claustrophobia as the article seems to intend the term. It's the least claustrophobic space possible on the surface of the Earth. Even an open meadow is less open than an empty paved parking lot because it has small bushes and shrubs everywhere. This matches my intuition as a mild sufferer--I actually try to picture a brightly lit gas station parking lot if I'm feeling claustrophobic.
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  Greenwich village in third place is weird when most of the residential side streets have dense tree canopies and minimal traffic.
  - Herring 1y ago
    Yeah this is probably the only metric where Rikers island beats SoHo.
quartz 1y ago
Agree with a lot of this methodology-- having lived in NYC with kids the #1 contributing factor to a feeling of claustrophobia for me is the size of the sidewalk and its buffering from the road. Compared to even the suburbs where 1-2 people on a sidewalk can feel like you're dangerously close to having to step into an active roadway, sidewalks in NYC neighborhoods like the upper east side feel gigantic and are bordered by parked cars that provide a buffer to the roadway. In 1811 the grid plan designated sidewalk widths to be 20ft for major cross-town roads vs. many suburban sidewalk widths at 4-5 feet. I'm a big fan of this sidewalk width map: https://sidewalkwidths.nyc/ https://sidewalkwidths.nyc/
kdr77 1y ago
I think this misses the point that a large contributor to feeling claustrophobic is on-street parking in residential neighborhoods. The author mentions Cobble Hill as "quaint and quiet" but it has multiple main streets with two parking lanes and one travel lane. Combine that with narrow sidewalks and pedestrians who aren't six feet tall can't see across the street. It's like walking down a canyon made of SUVs on one side and brownstone staircases on another. I think a simpler analysis of sidewalk width plus the presence of curb parking would provide a closer representation of the lived experience. In mid-town, you have wide avenues and wide streets yet that's singled out as the worst area. Doesn't really add up IMO.
HardwareLust 1y ago
Interesting. One anecdote is that having spent a considerable amount of time walking in a number of major cities (Tokyo, Singapore, SF, LA, Seattle, etc.) I've never felt anything remotely like 'claustrophobia' on the streets of NYC.
shermantanktop 1y ago
They don’t have data for “Cellars (not a problem unless open)” Walking past a random 10 foot deep open hole is very unnerving to me. It’s also just one of the many ways the city is inhospitable for people with accessibility needs. But of course the NYCers probably don’t even notice.
- foobarian 1y ago
  They have "Trash can", but not "giant pile of trash bags" :-)
- grokgrok 1y ago
  The random danger of NYC is part of its allure. People also benefit from appropriately challenging physical environments, as it enlivens and engages the body. Inattention in dense environments can lead to conflict and congestion, and so I suspect that the random observable dangers can serve some public good by causing general awareness and the self-exclusion of those who do not adapt to the needs of a dense place.
  - kridsdale1 1y ago
    Another advantageous random danger in NYC is the roving squads of ninjas. Good opportunity to keep practicing your nunchuck skills.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
      Friend of mine when he lived in Greenwich, CT commented on the "roving bands of preppie youth." I think they were mostly harmless :-)
      - kridsdale1 1y ago
        They might grow up to be managing directors at Bain Capital!
- chasd00 1y ago
  Read up on people being electrocuted by stepping on a manhole cover that has been energized by a utility line fault underneath. Every time I see one i think of those stories and wonder if it's going to kill me or not haha.
xnx 1y ago
How is building height not the primary factor? Building setbacks are intended to reduce the claustrophobic feeling of deep shadowed canyons.
Sharlin 1y ago
> In SoHo these days, there are so many pedestrians that they spill off the narrow sidewalks. Yeah, there you have it. I wonder why the sidewalks are so narrow (/s).
BergAndCo 1y ago
Wow, the least crowded place is Rikers Island? I'm moving there right now!
keernan 1y ago
I lived two blocks off Times Square for two years. The 'claustrophobia' described by the article provided me with a sense of anonymity which in turn made me feel safe. Living in the suburbs is much more like living in a fish bowl. I can't leave my house and take a walk around the neighborhood without the neighborhood being aware of my presence.

70 points by jxmorris12 1y ago

Obviously, he's never been to Rikers.

This is really fascinating use of city data. I’ve browsed stuff like sidewalk data in the NYC open data portal before and wondered what I could ever do with it. You have a better imagination than me! Particularly happy to see scaffolding listed in there. It’s an absolute blight on the city and some scaffolding remains up for years and years for no good reason. There should be fines for leaving it up.

colpabar 1y ago
Good point about the scaffolding. I stayed for a few days in the financial district last year and walking around outside the hotel felt like being underground.
rkeene2 1y ago
There is a good reason though, right? My understanding is that local ordinances require very frequent window inspections (following a highly publicized death), so to perform those inspections they need the scaffolding to protect the under-walking pedestrians from the inspectors. Because they are so frequent, it's cheaper to just leave the scaffolding up and take it down and put it up for every inspection. With drones becoming more common and robust, though, it will hopefully soon be easier and faster to do the inspections and so the scaffolding may become cheaper to remove and replace each cycle
- lokar 1y ago
  The inspection rules are kind of extreme, supported by the people who do the work and the scaffold companies. Once you “start work” (put up the scaffolding) the clock stops. You see buildings with scaffolding for years with little to non actual work.
- afavour 1y ago
  No, it’s because putting up scaffolding is cheaper than actually performing facade repairs. Inspections are only every five years. https://thehustle.co/originals/why-so-many-new-york-city-sidewalks-are-covered-in-scaffolding https://thehustle.co/originals/why-so-many-new-york-city-sid...

technothrasher 1y ago

As a born and bred country person, I've always found pretty much all cities claustrophobic for me. My son, I guess as part of his youthful rebellion, told me at the age of five that he was going to go to school in NYC, and he followed through on the threat. This past summer we drove down to the Bronx a few times in preparation for his attending Fordham University, and I found the Bronx very uncomfortably busy and loud. Well, this past weekend I went down to parent's weekend at the school, and stayed in Manhattan, which I hadn't been to in at least 25 years. After an evening in Manhattan, I took the train up to the Bronx and suddenly thought, "wow, this is so quiet and nice!" Clearly perspective is very important.

senkora 1y ago
Midtown Manhattan is “too much” even for a lot of New Yorkers. I try to minimize my time there.
- indoordin0saur 1y ago
  I work in Midtown and live in (a still very dense) part of Brooklyn. When I come home in the evenings and come up those subway stairs I always breathe a sigh of relief.
  - rayiner 1y ago
    That’s interesting. When I lived in Manhattan I didn’t mind the density at all. But I was apartment hunting in Brooklyn one day and literally had a panic attack at how chaotic it was. I made it two blocks from the 4/5/6 station (I forget which one) before heading back.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > made it two blocks from the 4/5/6 station (I forget which one) 4 or 5. If you fall asleep on those, you go to Brooklyn or the Bronx. If you fall asleep on the 6, you always wake up in the Bronx. (Well, or City Hall. But then you can get dumplings.)

labrador 1y ago

Mapping the Psychogeography of New York City “map the emotional terrain of the world’s most famous and influential urban center, New York City, and explore the effect of the city’s powerful moods on those who live and work here.” https://urbanomnibus.net/2010/10/you-are-here-mapping-the-psychogeography-of-new-york-city/ https://urbanomnibus.net/2010/10/you-are-here-mapping-the-ps... Psychogeography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography Speed Levitch: The New York City "Grid Plan" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9awJCyjt550 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9awJCyjt550

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

05bmckay 1y ago

Is it terrible that I read the headline and immediately thought they were talking about Claude? I reread it and realized I'm in too deep.

Herring 1y ago

I"m not sure I agree with the setup. He's weighting clutter types based on his personal experience, eg a newsstand (=3) is weighted 20 times higher than a tree (=0.15). It's very subjective, and like the model implies a desolate empty parking lot with no trees is somehow ideal. Important factors like urban vitality, utility, or aesthetic quality are not quantified so easily. If you want to see well-designed cities, look at Europe. Helsinki has both deep integration with nature, and high-quality public services. Denmark does very well with cycling, which improves public health and noise and air quality. Etc. I like to focus on countries that rank highly on the World Happiness Report, and try figure out what they're doing right.

coldpie 1y ago
> a desolate empty parking lot with no trees is somehow ideal The author is trying to measure "claustrophobia" specifically, not ideal-ness. An empty parking lot would be less claustrophobic than most other kinds of places, yes. The measured claustrophobia factor appears to be just one part of a larger analysis that resulted in a NYT article, but unfortunately the article isn't linked.
electroly 1y ago
An empty parking lot is effectively the gold standard for opposite-of-claustrophobia as the article seems to intend the term. It's the least claustrophobic space possible on the surface of the Earth. Even an open meadow is less open than an empty paved parking lot because it has small bushes and shrubs everywhere. This matches my intuition as a mild sufferer--I actually try to picture a brightly lit gas station parking lot if I'm feeling claustrophobic.
kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
Greenwich village in third place is weird when most of the residential side streets have dense tree canopies and minimal traffic.
- Herring 1y ago
  Yeah this is probably the only metric where Rikers island beats SoHo.

quartz 1y ago

Agree with a lot of this methodology-- having lived in NYC with kids the #1 contributing factor to a feeling of claustrophobia for me is the size of the sidewalk and its buffering from the road. Compared to even the suburbs where 1-2 people on a sidewalk can feel like you're dangerously close to having to step into an active roadway, sidewalks in NYC neighborhoods like the upper east side feel gigantic and are bordered by parked cars that provide a buffer to the roadway. In 1811 the grid plan designated sidewalk widths to be 20ft for major cross-town roads vs. many suburban sidewalk widths at 4-5 feet. I'm a big fan of this sidewalk width map: https://sidewalkwidths.nyc/ https://sidewalkwidths.nyc/

kdr77 1y ago

I think this misses the point that a large contributor to feeling claustrophobic is on-street parking in residential neighborhoods. The author mentions Cobble Hill as "quaint and quiet" but it has multiple main streets with two parking lanes and one travel lane. Combine that with narrow sidewalks and pedestrians who aren't six feet tall can't see across the street. It's like walking down a canyon made of SUVs on one side and brownstone staircases on another. I think a simpler analysis of sidewalk width plus the presence of curb parking would provide a closer representation of the lived experience. In mid-town, you have wide avenues and wide streets yet that's singled out as the worst area. Doesn't really add up IMO.

HardwareLust 1y ago

Interesting. One anecdote is that having spent a considerable amount of time walking in a number of major cities (Tokyo, Singapore, SF, LA, Seattle, etc.) I've never felt anything remotely like 'claustrophobia' on the streets of NYC.

shermantanktop 1y ago

They don’t have data for “Cellars (not a problem unless open)” Walking past a random 10 foot deep open hole is very unnerving to me. It’s also just one of the many ways the city is inhospitable for people with accessibility needs. But of course the NYCers probably don’t even notice.

foobarian 1y ago
They have "Trash can", but not "giant pile of trash bags" :-)
grokgrok 1y ago
The random danger of NYC is part of its allure. People also benefit from appropriately challenging physical environments, as it enlivens and engages the body. Inattention in dense environments can lead to conflict and congestion, and so I suspect that the random observable dangers can serve some public good by causing general awareness and the self-exclusion of those who do not adapt to the needs of a dense place.
- kridsdale1 1y ago
  Another advantageous random danger in NYC is the roving squads of ninjas. Good opportunity to keep practicing your nunchuck skills.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
    Friend of mine when he lived in Greenwich, CT commented on the "roving bands of preppie youth." I think they were mostly harmless :-)
    - kridsdale1 1y ago
      They might grow up to be managing directors at Bain Capital!
chasd00 1y ago
Read up on people being electrocuted by stepping on a manhole cover that has been energized by a utility line fault underneath. Every time I see one i think of those stories and wonder if it's going to kill me or not haha.

xnx 1y ago

How is building height not the primary factor? Building setbacks are intended to reduce the claustrophobic feeling of deep shadowed canyons.

Sharlin 1y ago

> In SoHo these days, there are so many pedestrians that they spill off the narrow sidewalks. Yeah, there you have it. I wonder why the sidewalks are so narrow (/s).

BergAndCo 1y ago

Wow, the least crowded place is Rikers Island? I'm moving there right now!

keernan 1y ago

I lived two blocks off Times Square for two years. The 'claustrophobia' described by the article provided me with a sense of anonymity which in turn made me feel safe. Living in the suburbs is much more like living in a fish bowl. I can't leave my house and take a walk around the neighborhood without the neighborhood being aware of my presence.