5 ms·

> The progress Progress towards what, exactly?

willis936 11mo ago
Victory over the terror of the natural world on all of its fronts. That doesn't mean decimation of natural beauty, but answering the question "how will I live comfortably and not die today?" everyday for everyone forever.
- getpokedagain 11mo ago
  Do you/we think this is a truly possible or laudable goal.
  - falcor84 11mo ago
    Leaving aside the heart death of the universe, I can imagine a future that's a more utopian version of the Altered Carbon universe, where everyone who wants to have daily backups, which they could set to restore either in the cloud or in a biological/robotic body in the case of an unintended death. I don't know if it's a laudable goal, but I think it'll eventually be possible.
  - willis936 11mo ago
    I was asked about the direction of the destination. Saying the direction and having everyone agree on it is worth a lot when the current bus driver is heading towards a cliff. I do think things get better if we all pursued this destination together. If you asked me several years ago I would have said "yes, the star trek future is at least partially attainable", but that requires a lot of optimism in technological advancement that I don't have. I do think that with the technology and resources available to us today (or the near future) we could support 10 billion people working safe labor in air conditioning, full stomachs, free time, and on a planet that is still hospitable. If you want to know how to actually get there: I have no idea, but I do know if we don't agree on the direction and make steps towards it continuously for many generations that we'll never get there. For now I'm voting with my feet and contributing my labor to a cause I think pushes us in the right direction. Also, I'm setting aside the battle with natural death. Preserving brains and their contents indefinitely is not impossible, but transhumanism is as much philosophy as it is technology.
    - getpokedagain 11mo ago
      Hmm. I think I get it and its certainly a goal you could get behind. I take it you basically oppose Ivan Illich's premise that modern medicine will never out smart death and fails to help people adapt to the truth of their mortality?
      - willis936 11mo ago
        I don't think that death is a certainty. It is today, but we are working on it. We are not supernatural. CGPGrey's thoughts on this mirror a lot of my own. I grant that not all care given to aged is a kindness, but not fighting aging is not virtuous. https://youtu.be/C25qzDhGLx8 https://youtu.be/C25qzDhGLx8 https://youtu.be/cZYNADOHhVY https://youtu.be/cZYNADOHhVY
_el1s7 11mo ago
Good question, I guess progress to the betterment of society, people's lives, and human knowledge and power. But no one really knows what future we are heading towards, or what would happen to us in 100,000 years. No one really cares to think that far ahead I guess.
- yurishimo 11mo ago
  We don’t think about it that much because every assumption we make is likely to turn out to be wildly inaccurate and the technology of the time will likely solve all of the problems we worry about now long before they ever reach that breaking point we are currently worrying about. Take the example from another thread today. In the 60s we were worried about food shortages to support the exploding population, but it turned out that we solved that problem way before the population number was at that assumed “breaking point”. We can theorize now about the problems we will face in 100k years, but what about the problems we can’t ever foresee? Aliens with hyperlight laser beams? Rogue asteroids? We have no answers for those types of problems, but they are probably more likely than anything we can dream up today.
  - bluGill 11mo ago
    astroids are a problem, but we know enough physics to say aliens can't attack. if they exist they are too far away to know we are here.
    - griffzhowl 11mo ago
      > we know enough physics to say aliens can't attack Don't be too optimistic... This isn't just a question of physics but also about the probability of the emergence of complex technological intelligence. Since we only know about a single case, we can't determine this probability. We can make various guesses but these all involve assumptions about things other than physics
      - bluGill 11mo ago
        all the alien intelligence needs to obey the laws of physics we know. There might be major things we don't know but it still fits in our current laws. unless you are appealing to 'God can do anything' - but since God wouldn't do that we can ignore that he could.
bonoboTP 11mo ago
I didn't mean it in a moral sense, but in sheer production, population, the physical energy moved around the mass of materials moved around etc. It's a wholly orthogonal question whether this is better in a moral sense, whether people are happier, live more in harmony with their authentic selves or with God or whatever. The point is that even an alien would be able to see that this age is not simply like any other where people thought highly of themselves. There has been massive material-technological improvement in the last two centuries in a way that doesn't apply to every era at all. Seriously look at a chart of a world population. It's a hockey stick. Again I'm not claiming here and now that this is a moral improvement. Maybe you think it's for the worse and take the cautionary view, like the stories of Icarus, or the Tower of Babel and think it's bad that we took too much control of things. But that's an orthogonal question.
cutemonster 11mo ago
Not having half of your kids die, could be one thing: "For most of human history, around 1 in 2 newborns died before reaching the age of 15. By 1950, that figure had declined to around one-quarter globally. By 2020, it had fallen to 4%." https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality
achrono 11mo ago
Towards maximizing the sum of individual happiness, power, beauty and knowledge. Maybe a few other attributes in there, but these are the bare minimum that no civilization would deny for itself. The question of course is 'how'. For the last few centuries, the answer has been technology.

Victory over the terror of the natural world on all of its fronts. That doesn't mean decimation of natural beauty, but answering the question "how will I live comfortably and not die today?" everyday for everyone forever.

getpokedagain 11mo ago
Do you/we think this is a truly possible or laudable goal.
- falcor84 11mo ago
  Leaving aside the heart death of the universe, I can imagine a future that's a more utopian version of the Altered Carbon universe, where everyone who wants to have daily backups, which they could set to restore either in the cloud or in a biological/robotic body in the case of an unintended death. I don't know if it's a laudable goal, but I think it'll eventually be possible.
- willis936 11mo ago
  I was asked about the direction of the destination. Saying the direction and having everyone agree on it is worth a lot when the current bus driver is heading towards a cliff. I do think things get better if we all pursued this destination together. If you asked me several years ago I would have said "yes, the star trek future is at least partially attainable", but that requires a lot of optimism in technological advancement that I don't have. I do think that with the technology and resources available to us today (or the near future) we could support 10 billion people working safe labor in air conditioning, full stomachs, free time, and on a planet that is still hospitable. If you want to know how to actually get there: I have no idea, but I do know if we don't agree on the direction and make steps towards it continuously for many generations that we'll never get there. For now I'm voting with my feet and contributing my labor to a cause I think pushes us in the right direction. Also, I'm setting aside the battle with natural death. Preserving brains and their contents indefinitely is not impossible, but transhumanism is as much philosophy as it is technology.
  - getpokedagain 11mo ago
    Hmm. I think I get it and its certainly a goal you could get behind. I take it you basically oppose Ivan Illich's premise that modern medicine will never out smart death and fails to help people adapt to the truth of their mortality?
    - willis936 11mo ago
      I don't think that death is a certainty. It is today, but we are working on it. We are not supernatural. CGPGrey's thoughts on this mirror a lot of my own. I grant that not all care given to aged is a kindness, but not fighting aging is not virtuous. https://youtu.be/C25qzDhGLx8 https://youtu.be/C25qzDhGLx8 https://youtu.be/cZYNADOHhVY https://youtu.be/cZYNADOHhVY

_el1s7 11mo ago

Good question, I guess progress to the betterment of society, people's lives, and human knowledge and power. But no one really knows what future we are heading towards, or what would happen to us in 100,000 years. No one really cares to think that far ahead I guess.

yurishimo 11mo ago
We don’t think about it that much because every assumption we make is likely to turn out to be wildly inaccurate and the technology of the time will likely solve all of the problems we worry about now long before they ever reach that breaking point we are currently worrying about. Take the example from another thread today. In the 60s we were worried about food shortages to support the exploding population, but it turned out that we solved that problem way before the population number was at that assumed “breaking point”. We can theorize now about the problems we will face in 100k years, but what about the problems we can’t ever foresee? Aliens with hyperlight laser beams? Rogue asteroids? We have no answers for those types of problems, but they are probably more likely than anything we can dream up today.
- bluGill 11mo ago
  astroids are a problem, but we know enough physics to say aliens can't attack. if they exist they are too far away to know we are here.
  - griffzhowl 11mo ago
    > we know enough physics to say aliens can't attack Don't be too optimistic... This isn't just a question of physics but also about the probability of the emergence of complex technological intelligence. Since we only know about a single case, we can't determine this probability. We can make various guesses but these all involve assumptions about things other than physics
    - bluGill 11mo ago
      all the alien intelligence needs to obey the laws of physics we know. There might be major things we don't know but it still fits in our current laws. unless you are appealing to 'God can do anything' - but since God wouldn't do that we can ignore that he could.

bonoboTP 11mo ago

I didn't mean it in a moral sense, but in sheer production, population, the physical energy moved around the mass of materials moved around etc. It's a wholly orthogonal question whether this is better in a moral sense, whether people are happier, live more in harmony with their authentic selves or with God or whatever. The point is that even an alien would be able to see that this age is not simply like any other where people thought highly of themselves. There has been massive material-technological improvement in the last two centuries in a way that doesn't apply to every era at all. Seriously look at a chart of a world population. It's a hockey stick. Again I'm not claiming here and now that this is a moral improvement. Maybe you think it's for the worse and take the cautionary view, like the stories of Icarus, or the Tower of Babel and think it's bad that we took too much control of things. But that's an orthogonal question.

cutemonster 11mo ago

Not having half of your kids die, could be one thing: "For most of human history, around 1 in 2 newborns died before reaching the age of 15. By 1950, that figure had declined to around one-quarter globally. By 2020, it had fallen to 4%." https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality

achrono 11mo ago

Towards maximizing the sum of individual happiness, power, beauty and knowledge. Maybe a few other attributes in there, but these are the bare minimum that no civilization would deny for itself. The question of course is 'how'. For the last few centuries, the answer has been technology.