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I don't think this is the "why". What you're depicting is what happened in JavaScript. Dictionary keys in Python always had that (to me) annoying property that

I don't think this is the "why". What you're depicting is what happened in JavaScript. Dictionary keys in Python always had that (to me) annoying property that they preserved insertion order until they don't. I'd frankly much prefer if they'd always be iterated in random order each time they're traversed.

not_kurt_godel 11mo ago
I'd love to see the results of mandating a random order dict impl at an actual company/org (but hate to be forced to participate). Hopefully you hired developers who really like to write sorting algos.
- yxhuvud 11mo ago
  Well, that is how hash tables in go works, so you'd not have to look that far.
  - not_kurt_godel 11mo ago
    Great. Maybe GP will go a step farther and also mandate arrays that return elements in random order too. Relying on insertion order for any reason is for weaklings.
  - tasty_freeze 11mo ago
    Perl since 5.8.something has had the option of perturbing the hash function, so it is different from run to run. You can also set the set to a given value in order to lock in the sequence. In any case, it is not ordered. If you want that, you have to explicitly sort the keys of the hash.
- nielsbot 11mo ago
  Swift (heavily used by Apple) has randomly ordered dictionaries for security: > In particular, random seeding enables better protection against (accidental or deliberate) hash-flooding attacks https://forums.swift.org/t/psa-the-stdlib-now-uses-randomly-seeded-hash-values/10789 https://forums.swift.org/t/psa-the-stdlib-now-uses-randomly-...
  - not_kurt_godel 11mo ago
    Perhaps not unrelated to why Python is the #1 most popular language while Swift is #22 https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
    - nielsbot 11mo ago
      Swift isn’t popular because its Dictionary type uses randomly ordered keys?
      - cyanydeez 11mo ago
        Probably the inference is YAGNI .
      - not_kurt_godel 11mo ago
        It certainly could be a reason among many. Just look at the thread GP shared, containing multiple years' worth of users voicing frustration at the introduction of this behavior.

not_kurt_godel 11mo ago

I'd love to see the results of mandating a random order dict impl at an actual company/org (but hate to be forced to participate). Hopefully you hired developers who really like to write sorting algos.

yxhuvud 11mo ago
Well, that is how hash tables in go works, so you'd not have to look that far.
- not_kurt_godel 11mo ago
  Great. Maybe GP will go a step farther and also mandate arrays that return elements in random order too. Relying on insertion order for any reason is for weaklings.
- tasty_freeze 11mo ago
  Perl since 5.8.something has had the option of perturbing the hash function, so it is different from run to run. You can also set the set to a given value in order to lock in the sequence. In any case, it is not ordered. If you want that, you have to explicitly sort the keys of the hash.
nielsbot 11mo ago
Swift (heavily used by Apple) has randomly ordered dictionaries for security: > In particular, random seeding enables better protection against (accidental or deliberate) hash-flooding attacks https://forums.swift.org/t/psa-the-stdlib-now-uses-randomly-seeded-hash-values/10789 https://forums.swift.org/t/psa-the-stdlib-now-uses-randomly-...
- not_kurt_godel 11mo ago
  Perhaps not unrelated to why Python is the #1 most popular language while Swift is #22 https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
  - nielsbot 11mo ago
    Swift isn’t popular because its Dictionary type uses randomly ordered keys?
    - cyanydeez 11mo ago
      Probably the inference is YAGNI .
    - not_kurt_godel 11mo ago
      It certainly could be a reason among many. Just look at the thread GP shared, containing multiple years' worth of users voicing frustration at the introduction of this behavior.