11 ms·

Crunchyroll is destroying its subtitles

461 points by Daiz 11mo ago

Daiz 11mo ago
This is the result of a ton of research into Crunchyroll's recent subtitle changes that have tanked the service's first-party presentation quality to an all-time low. The article ended up being quite long, so I highly appreciate anyone taking the time to read it in full!
- ashirviskas 11mo ago
  Never used Crunchyroll, but this is a pretty interesting read! Did not finish it yet though. I see you doing a ton of styling, which makes it a very pleasant reading experience, may I ask what techniques do you use? Is cyan just to replace bold or something else?
  - Daiz 11mo ago
    The cyan is basically just bold, but also a highlighter. I was using just plain bold initially but started experimenting with it and landed on this. Pairs quite nicely with the pink links, IMO.
- gblargg 11mo ago
  I didn't find an answer skimming: are they actively deleting old good subtitles and replacing with low-quality ones (as the title seems to suggest), have they simply changed their process for new subtitles, not spending as much to make nice ones? If they're actively deleting old good ones, that seems malicious.
  - Daiz 11mo ago
    I did find instances of them actively deleting old subtitles and replacing them with lower quality ones in the back catalog, yes. Which seems indicative of Crunchyroll wanting to eventually get rid of good subtitles altogether.
    - jonhohle 11mo ago
      What reason would there be for removing old, loved subtitles? Licensing fees?
      - underlipton 11mo ago
        Without knowing for sure, a conceivable strategy would be making it so that users who don't know that "good subs" can exist more readily accept "bad subs" as the standard. Same playbook as Google lobotomizing search and the index that search can access because that traditional search product is more efficacious than Gemini, which Google is trying to push on users.
      - Crespyl 11mo ago
        IIUC, it comes down to simplifying playback/subtitle rendering to the lowest common denominator among the various western streaming platforms. The good/old subtitles in the ASS format required a more complex playback system than what Netflix/Hulu (and maybe blueray players) currently offer. This could be worked around by burning the subs into the video stream, but then you need to keep separate copies of your (large) video files for each subtitled language. That doesn't seem like it'd be such a huge problem to me, but what do I know? The post does a good job explaining the effective monopoly system at play that prevents real competition to provide any pressure to improve or maintain the prior quality.
        ramses0 11mo ago
        It's an X*N*N problem: n_videos, bitrates, formats. Assuming each video in its largest bitrate is... 2gb for example, and assuming S3 is $0.025/gb, that's a nickle per month or let's say $0.50/yr for that video. Next up is reduced bitrates, assume you go from 2gb to 1gb and finally 500mb. Round up and you're at $1/video. Now duplicate it to AV1 and MP4, and multiply that by English, French, and Spanish (oh, and let's say Japanese and Chinese too for good measure). So a single 2gb video goes from $1/yr to $10/yr, and you're not doing "the dumb simple thing" for subtitles which would basically 4x your cost over "commodity subtitling services". Or "simplify, simplify simplify", you reduce costs (cha-ching!), and become compatible for syndication or redistribution (cha-ching!) ... and they would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling kids!
- tmtvl 11mo ago
  Does Netflix really only allow 2 lines of subtitling on screen at a time? That's really stupid. Also I remember when CR killed the Kodi plugin, that irked me enough to stick to DVD imports + fan subs for a while. Finally, Ruri Rocks is such a good show, it got me to resubscribe to CR after not having subbed for years. If they screw with its subs I'm gonna root for this mess to bankrupt CR for good.
  - Daiz 11mo ago
    See for yourself: https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/215758617-Timed-Text-Style-Guide-General-Requirements https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/215... > 4. Line Treatment > 2 lines maximum
  - makeitdouble 11mo ago
    > Ruri Rocks This could be the toughest show to sub with all the geological explaination and jargon the adapter must be familiar with. Adding to that the line limit, The bar to cross sounds quite hard.
    - itpcc 11mo ago
      Not to mention the whole informative slideshow between the scene.Can't imagine how can they achieve that with only 2 lines.
    - voidUpdate 11mo ago
      Do you know if there are plans to dub it at some point? I was looking forward to watching it, but I prefer dubs to subs (yes I know I'm weird)
  - askl 11mo ago
    > Finally, Ruri Rocks is such a good show I only had time to skim the article, so adding this show to my to-do list has been my main takeaway so far.
- JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
  > that have tanked the service's first-party presentation quality to an all-time low Would you pirate for better subtitles? Assuming Crunchroll has the legal rights to the content pinned down, that may be the only way to apply legitimate pressure.
  - Citizen_Lame 11mo ago
    Irony is Crunchyroll, started as a pirate service.
    - jack_tripper 11mo ago
      So did Spotify.
- Suppafly 11mo ago
  One thing I've noticed is that they outright refuse to let you pick english audio and english subs, despite the audio and the subs being two different settings that theoretically should be independent of each other.
solarmist 11mo ago
Relevant discussion from a previous post. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45497900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45497900
- solarmist 11mo ago
  There was also a discussion somewhere where they switched off the OSS subtitling software they were using onto a commercial product that doesn't implement many of the features (mostly typesetting features) of the previous software.
  - Daiz 11mo ago
    The linked article here goes over all of that in great detail!
anigbrowl 11mo ago
This article badly needs an editor. Even though it's a topic I'm very interested in (and with the perspective of being semi-fluent in Japanese), it's so rambling and visually messy that I gave up halfway through.
jwrallie 11mo ago
Most streaming companies are forgetting what they were competing with when they started out.
- gessha 11mo ago
  Arr, well, ‘tis high time they be rememberin’!
kacesensitive 11mo ago
It's so hard finding dubbed anime WITH subtitles. Like actually ridiculously hard. My wife is deaf and I like dubbed so I can use my laptop while we chill but she literally needs subtitles so it's super annoying when a show either 1. Has no subtitles for dubbed. 2. Their subtitles are just the subbed version's subtitles which are drastically different from what the dubbed VAs are actually saying. 3. Has subtitles for some episodes but none for others seemingly randomly.
- Daiz 11mo ago
  Lack of closed captions and dubtitles are definitely very real issues as well, though this article is solely focused on subtitles.
- arczyx 11mo ago
  at this point you're probably better off going to a torrent site and search for 'dual-audio'
  - Root_Denied 11mo ago
    This is unfortunately the answer - VLC/MPV would allow you to select the dubbed audio and also select the EN-US subtitles that are based on the original audio. GabeN saying that piracy is first and foremost a service problem is still right on the money.
- jwrallie 11mo ago
  If you ever need to hack some subs by yourself, whisper.cpp can output .srt files and you can run the small or medium models even on modest hardware.
  - redwall_hp 11mo ago
    CrunchyRoll did something like that to the Re:Zero dub's captions, and it's a disgrace. Every single proper noun is wrong. It messes up every fantasy item/place/monster/etc name, and can't distinguish between the Rem/Ram/Rom characters. It also has no concept of of which character is talking, and interprets dialogues as singular sentences.
charcircuit 11mo ago
The mass market has already responded that they want dubbed anime. It doesn't make sense to invest into subtitles. Maybe it's time to accept that you are not the target audience anymore of western anime distributors.
- johnny22 11mo ago
  you still need to subtitle the japanese text in signs, chat messages and other places that appear on the screen.
  - charcircuit 11mo ago
    I am saying that they can get away with lower quality subtitles in such places because the average user does not care that much about it. The target audience is not the same as when they first started doing subtitles and it doesn't make business sense anymore. Anime is not special. If the rest of the video streaming industry can get away with simpler subtitles, then Crunchyroll can too.
    - PaulHoule 11mo ago
      People that are into anime are into anime because it is special. JoJo's Bizzare Adventure is cool when Marvel movies aren't because JoJo was made by one mangaka and a Marvel movie is made by a committee of committees.
      - deleted 11mo ago
        [deleted]
- Daiz 11mo ago
  Quality typesetting is just as important for dubs as it is for subs, actually! All that on-screen text will be there regardless of which audio track you are using.
- cosmic_cheese 11mo ago
  That number varies depending on who you ask, with CR being one of the sources that claims a heavier share of dub watchers, but half their business is now dubbing/localization (by way of Funimation merger) so it may not be the most objective source. Either way it’s bad business to throw some of your most loyal customers under the bus, regardless of how big of a portion they represent. Dub viewers tend to be more casual and fickle and will largely evaporate once the zeitgeist of popular media moves from anime onto something else.
NoahZuniga 11mo ago
> With such typesetting-hostile standards to deal with, Crunchyroll had basically two choices for how to make sublicensing to Amazon and Netflix work with their existing subtitles that feature actual typesetting: Either 1) try to negotiate with the services for permission to make use of more TTML capabilities (that the subtitle renderers of said services should already support!) or 2) start mangling subtitles with typesetting into something compatible with the awful subtitling standards of the general streaming services. Couldn't they also provide Amazon and Netflix a version of the video stream with baked in subtitles?
- Daiz 11mo ago
  Both services explicitly disallow this by default in their delivery specifications, unfortunately. Netflix: https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/215148917-Full-Non-Branded-Delivery-Specification-v9-3 https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/215... > Netflix requires a non-subtitled version of the content. Netflix defines “non-subtitled” as the presence of main titles, end credits, location call-outs, and other supportive/creative text, but no burned-in subtitled dialogue, regardless of the language in the primary video. Amazon: https://videocentral.amazon.com/support/delivery-experience/delivery-overview/global-packaging-requirements https://videocentral.amazon.com/support/delivery-experience/... > Video > Global packaging requires component asset packages to be delivered with a semi-textless video file that can be localized with discrete subtitles and audio dubbing. > Also known as “Texted with no subtitles,” “Textless with main, ends, and graphic text,” and “Non-subtitled”, Prime Video defines semi-textless as a video master without burned-in subtitles, regardless of the language.
- bonecrusher2102 11mo ago
  Those vendors likely won’t accept hardsubs, because it would mean 10 video files for 10 languages, instead of soft subs where you get 1 video file 10 languages (10 different subtitle files). But here’s the other thing - CR could have used the ASS subs on their website and given the less-dynamic sub files to their vendors. You can save a master subtitle file in whatever format you want.
  - 11mo ago
kazinator 11mo ago
There is a solution: learn Japanese!
- rs186 11mo ago
  I guess it's easy to type it out on the keyboard. How long did it take you to learn a language to arrive at a level where you can watch a movie/TV program with tons of idioms and cultural references and easily understand > 95% of it?
  - nickitolas 11mo ago
    Not who you were asking but for me about 1800 hours of study+srs+reading+listening for simple shows (not "tons of idioms". Or at least not ones Im not already familiar with). This was for japanese, european languages should be easier.
  - Anonyneko 11mo ago
    A few years (I'm a slow learner), but it was worth it because of the sheer amount of Japanese content that I consume.
- kobebrookskC3 11mo ago
  そんな暇ねぇよ
  - kazinator 11mo ago
    アニメーをたくさん見られる暇あるなら、勉強する時間だってあるはずだぜ。
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
nextworddev 11mo ago
Considering how Crunchyroll started out by streaming ripped off anime content, hope they fail
- FooBarWidget 11mo ago
  It has been a loooong time since that. I'm pretty happy they not only went the legal route, but also were successful doing it while retaining a relatively large library. They could have failed and shut down. Remember that back then, Japanese producers didn't take overseas demand seriously, many of them don't even know that it existed or that there were many fansubs.
  - nextworddev 11mo ago
    They basically infringed copyright and ripped off Japanese animators, and took the legal route so they can extract more money… sounds like your run of the mill Taiwanese CD rip business back in the 90s..
renewiltord 11mo ago
Tried watching some CR content on Amazon Prime. Unusable. The subs are garbage. Better quality from Netflix which is a freaking random host not even anime focused. Had to cancel the CR sub. Literally unwatchable
samlevy0515 11mo ago
[dead]
rpgbr 11mo ago
Let me guess: AI?
m10i 11mo ago
A similar issue has been plaguing the manga industry since "The Great Scanlator Purge" that took place a few years ago, leaving only the "official" Viz media-contracted translators in the wake of the ruins. For some reason, this change came with a general unwillingness on the translators part to correct, or translate, concepts that virtually all fan translators would've been happy to do. Here's some examples (there are many more): 1) the explanation of puns and hidden meanings in the kanji used to describe names, locations, special abilities, jokes, which honorifics are being used currently (if any), etc. of which there are usually many. Understanding/being aware of this context used to be absolutely vital to the experience of reading manga. 2) there's a relatively new manga called "Versus", in which humans from parallel earths, in parallel universes all merge into the same universe, and their planets are also merged together. In the english version, Viz translates one of those worlds as "Indignia", which doesn't mean anything. However, the Japanese for this world is "怒ど神しん界かい" (Doshinkai), which is literally interpreted as "World of the Angry God", or "Mad God World". They took it upon themselves to make similar changes for all the other worlds, obscuring their original meanings as intended by the author... why? Beats me. Now, one could make the argument that "Mad God World" doesn't sound good in english, so the Viz translators change is an improvement, which is not unreasonable. However, any half-decent fan translator would've simply left a footnote like "the literal Japanese interpretation is X; I changed it to Indignia because...". Problem solved! Don't just retcon things because you feel like it without explaining yourself. And if you won't explain yourself, then leave it as is. 3) english One Piece readers often have no idea just how many things are lost in translation; One Piece is filled to the brim with puns, double-entendre's, and foreshadowing, which has always been a significant part of its appeal, and is now nowhere to be found via the official providers. 4) Physical signs, such as things written on buildings, on somebody's clothing, or even on a stop sign, are usually not translated. 5) cover pages! You wouldn't know it anymore, but manga often has cover pages (often officially colorized) with extra comments and tidbits from the authors. Fans would include these pages in their scanlations. Viz pretends they don't exist. I can only imagine the thought process of whoever's making these decisions at Viz (or its parent company Shueisha) resembles something like "westerners don't care about that stuff. Stop wasting precious time and resources trying to explain it". They don't quite seem to understand how badly they have diluted the manga reading experience in the west, especially for those of us that grew up reading this stuff, way before it reached mainstream popularity.
rixtox 11mo ago
Netflix implements "imgsub"[1] - it actually delivers a zipped archive of transparent images to the player. So technically they can pre-render positioned typesetted subtitles on server and render them as images overlay, as long as there's no animated text effects. In general, streaming services have to ensure maximum compatibility when playing their contents on all kinds of devices - high end and low end. For which on low end device it could be very resource constraining to render typesetted subtitles. There are other platforms where all video playback have to be managed by the platform system frameworks with limited format support, and streaming services can't do much about it. The priority of streaming service is extending their market reach, and I think Crunchyroll itself is facing the same challenge of market reaching. I think the right solution is trying to get typesetted subtitles, and the end-to-end workflow - creation, packaging, delivery, rendering with adaptation (device capabilities, user preferences, localizations etc) all standardized. A more efficient workflow is needed, so a single source of subtitle is able to generate a set of renditions suitable for different player render capabilities. Chrunchyroll should actively participate in these standard bodies and push for adaption for more features and support in the streaming industry. [1]: https://netflixsubs.app/docs/netflix/features/imgsub https://netflixsubs.app/docs/netflix/features/imgsub
- Daiz 11mo ago
  Unfortunately, as the link describes, Netflix only makes this available for a very limited set of languages, while everyone else is stuck with the extremely limited text-based standards. Frankly, those text-based subtitle standards are quite maddening on their own. Netflix's text-based subtitle rendering seems to support a much wider set of TTML features than what it actually allows subtitle providers to use - so if these restrictions were to be slightly relaxed, providers could start offering better subtitles for anime immediately with no additional effort from Netflix.
  - mook 11mo ago
    What Netflix supports on their main website might not be what they care about, though; you used to be able to watch Netflix on the Nintendo Wii, and they probably still have some users on stupidly old smart TVs.
thot_experiment 11mo ago
Sort of unrelated, but has anyone else noticed that there are a lot of subtitling errors in netflix shows recently? Two I noticed yesterday: "natural world" -> "national world" "cede power" -> "seed power" I guess they're just machine transcribing it without oversight now?
- keane 11mo ago
  Yes. Even in their kinda flagship title right now, A House of Dynamite: [14:08] "I'm told high, Jerry." -> "I'm told… Hi, Jerry." (in response to being asked "What's your level of confidence on that?") I always wonder why they don't have a way to upload the shooting script as a starting point so they could then make changes from there.
- QuiDortDine 11mo ago
  Welcome to the future! Do you feel disrupted yet?
- csomar 11mo ago
  Netflix dumps this task to third-party vendors. Theoretically, they should vet and verify the work quality but it's probably a race to the very bottom.
- zdc1 11mo ago
  It's only a matter of time before the incorrect translations become standard english, and the correct translations become "formal" or even "archaisms". We're truly seeded our language to a bunch of crappy algorithms...
montakaoh 11mo ago
Yeah, ASS rendering was a big problem for me when I was making some online subtitling software. I ended up on using https://github.com/ThaUnknown/jassub https://github.com/ThaUnknown/jassub + using Mediabunny to render a "subtitles" media track on top rendered on a canvas. The result works pretty well, e.g. https://www.translate.mom/app/task/2UicdIqRBg0f https://www.translate.mom/app/task/2UicdIqRBg0f
sqidyyy 11mo ago
Incredibly detailed article, thanks for that. The blog software still uses example.com in html head, RSS feed and sitemap XML.
- Daiz 11mo ago
  Good catch, thanks - I literally built the site alongside the article, so there's still some rough edges here and there.
jahsome 11mo ago
As someone who doesn't watch anime, this article reminds me of when a coworker sends a screenshot with zero context and says something like "is this supposed to be like this?" Maybe it's a spectrum thing, but I find it beyond lazy and insulting. In the article, there's zero explanation of what the actual issue is, at least in the first few paragraphs. It just seems to say the subtitles are bad with some examples and puts the burden on the reader to determine why. Is the issue the subtitle's location on the screen ? Contrast or font? Quality of translations? Again, it's probably a spectrum thing, but without any context I find it overwhelming and overstimulating.
- Daiz 11mo ago
  Well... the very first paragraph of the article does say with highlighting how "the presentation quality for translations of on-screen text has taken a total nosedive". And then it shows visual examples of the new bad quality and gives comparison screenshots demonstrating good quality shortly after.
  - jahsome 11mo ago
    The article says there's a nosedive. But by what standard(s)? See the questions I already posted in my original response. Both the "good" and "bad" quality examples contain subtitles with no discernible difference. All examples contain legible subtitles. So where's the "nosedive"? There's clearly some anime-specific context and nuance that is NOT communicated with context-less screencaps. Perhaps the article wasn't written for someone unfamiliar with anime, and I'm not meant to understand, but it would be helpful to have the difference explained. Not to mention the improved accessibility for screen readers or folks with sensory processing issues like myself. At a minimum, marking up the image would be helpful. Circle things. Arrows. Help me understand, don't drop me into unfamiliar territory and leave me to guess.
    - GolDDranks 11mo ago
      The difference is that when there is text on the original video material, in the good examples the translations are positioned in the proximity of the original texts, and styled similarly, which makes it easier to understand what is translation of what, and generally improves immersion. In the bad examples, the translations for the texts are mixed with the lines the characters are speaking, which makes it harder to follow.
protocolture 11mo ago
I was wondering why chunchyroll subtitles were dirt when viewed through prime.
flobosg 11mo ago
Related discussion from three weeks ago: Why did Crunchyroll's subtitles just get worse? – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45458973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45458973
Jackson__ 11mo ago
As someone who has spent decidedly too many hours in Aegisubs to create at least somewhat decent subtitles, for projects which have long ago gone the way of the DMCA, these changes feel quite insulting. ASS has been a perfectly cromulent subtitle format and should've been widely adopted. Though on a related topic, on Netflix it is not just the subtitling that is bad, the translations are awful too. They are cutting every corner so hard I fear they might become a circle.
leche 11mo ago
Netflix has started showing simplified subtitles recently. We watch with subtitles on and these inaccurate subtitles are infuriating. It's part of their "second screen" strategy I think - people are on their phones while they're watching, so don't make them try too hard to read the subs.
Blackthorn 11mo ago
Those My Dress Up Darling Blu-ray subtitles are an abomination, holy shit.

461 points by Daiz 11mo ago

Daiz 11mo ago

This is the result of a ton of research into Crunchyroll's recent subtitle changes that have tanked the service's first-party presentation quality to an all-time low. The article ended up being quite long, so I highly appreciate anyone taking the time to read it in full!

ashirviskas 11mo ago
Never used Crunchyroll, but this is a pretty interesting read! Did not finish it yet though. I see you doing a ton of styling, which makes it a very pleasant reading experience, may I ask what techniques do you use? Is cyan just to replace bold or something else?
- Daiz 11mo ago
  The cyan is basically just bold, but also a highlighter. I was using just plain bold initially but started experimenting with it and landed on this. Pairs quite nicely with the pink links, IMO.
gblargg 11mo ago
I didn't find an answer skimming: are they actively deleting old good subtitles and replacing with low-quality ones (as the title seems to suggest), have they simply changed their process for new subtitles, not spending as much to make nice ones? If they're actively deleting old good ones, that seems malicious.
- Daiz 11mo ago
  I did find instances of them actively deleting old subtitles and replacing them with lower quality ones in the back catalog, yes. Which seems indicative of Crunchyroll wanting to eventually get rid of good subtitles altogether.
  - jonhohle 11mo ago
    What reason would there be for removing old, loved subtitles? Licensing fees?
    - underlipton 11mo ago
      Without knowing for sure, a conceivable strategy would be making it so that users who don't know that "good subs" can exist more readily accept "bad subs" as the standard. Same playbook as Google lobotomizing search and the index that search can access because that traditional search product is more efficacious than Gemini, which Google is trying to push on users.
    - Crespyl 11mo ago
      IIUC, it comes down to simplifying playback/subtitle rendering to the lowest common denominator among the various western streaming platforms. The good/old subtitles in the ASS format required a more complex playback system than what Netflix/Hulu (and maybe blueray players) currently offer. This could be worked around by burning the subs into the video stream, but then you need to keep separate copies of your (large) video files for each subtitled language. That doesn't seem like it'd be such a huge problem to me, but what do I know? The post does a good job explaining the effective monopoly system at play that prevents real competition to provide any pressure to improve or maintain the prior quality.
      - ramses0 11mo ago
        It's an X*N*N problem: n_videos, bitrates, formats. Assuming each video in its largest bitrate is... 2gb for example, and assuming S3 is $0.025/gb, that's a nickle per month or let's say $0.50/yr for that video. Next up is reduced bitrates, assume you go from 2gb to 1gb and finally 500mb. Round up and you're at $1/video. Now duplicate it to AV1 and MP4, and multiply that by English, French, and Spanish (oh, and let's say Japanese and Chinese too for good measure). So a single 2gb video goes from $1/yr to $10/yr, and you're not doing "the dumb simple thing" for subtitles which would basically 4x your cost over "commodity subtitling services". Or "simplify, simplify simplify", you reduce costs (cha-ching!), and become compatible for syndication or redistribution (cha-ching!) ... and they would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling kids!
tmtvl 11mo ago
Does Netflix really only allow 2 lines of subtitling on screen at a time? That's really stupid. Also I remember when CR killed the Kodi plugin, that irked me enough to stick to DVD imports + fan subs for a while. Finally, Ruri Rocks is such a good show, it got me to resubscribe to CR after not having subbed for years. If they screw with its subs I'm gonna root for this mess to bankrupt CR for good.
- Daiz 11mo ago
  See for yourself: https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/215758617-Timed-Text-Style-Guide-General-Requirements https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/215... > 4. Line Treatment > 2 lines maximum
- makeitdouble 11mo ago
  > Ruri Rocks This could be the toughest show to sub with all the geological explaination and jargon the adapter must be familiar with. Adding to that the line limit, The bar to cross sounds quite hard.
  - itpcc 11mo ago
    Not to mention the whole informative slideshow between the scene.Can't imagine how can they achieve that with only 2 lines.
  - voidUpdate 11mo ago
    Do you know if there are plans to dub it at some point? I was looking forward to watching it, but I prefer dubs to subs (yes I know I'm weird)
- askl 11mo ago
  > Finally, Ruri Rocks is such a good show I only had time to skim the article, so adding this show to my to-do list has been my main takeaway so far.
JumpCrisscross 11mo ago
> that have tanked the service's first-party presentation quality to an all-time low Would you pirate for better subtitles? Assuming Crunchroll has the legal rights to the content pinned down, that may be the only way to apply legitimate pressure.
- Citizen_Lame 11mo ago
  Irony is Crunchyroll, started as a pirate service.
  - jack_tripper 11mo ago
    So did Spotify.
Suppafly 11mo ago
One thing I've noticed is that they outright refuse to let you pick english audio and english subs, despite the audio and the subs being two different settings that theoretically should be independent of each other.

solarmist 11mo ago

Relevant discussion from a previous post. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45497900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45497900

solarmist 11mo ago
There was also a discussion somewhere where they switched off the OSS subtitling software they were using onto a commercial product that doesn't implement many of the features (mostly typesetting features) of the previous software.
- Daiz 11mo ago
  The linked article here goes over all of that in great detail!

anigbrowl 11mo ago

This article badly needs an editor. Even though it's a topic I'm very interested in (and with the perspective of being semi-fluent in Japanese), it's so rambling and visually messy that I gave up halfway through.

jwrallie 11mo ago

Most streaming companies are forgetting what they were competing with when they started out.

gessha 11mo ago
Arr, well, ‘tis high time they be rememberin’!

kacesensitive 11mo ago

It's so hard finding dubbed anime WITH subtitles. Like actually ridiculously hard. My wife is deaf and I like dubbed so I can use my laptop while we chill but she literally needs subtitles so it's super annoying when a show either 1. Has no subtitles for dubbed. 2. Their subtitles are just the subbed version's subtitles which are drastically different from what the dubbed VAs are actually saying. 3. Has subtitles for some episodes but none for others seemingly randomly.

Daiz 11mo ago
Lack of closed captions and dubtitles are definitely very real issues as well, though this article is solely focused on subtitles.
arczyx 11mo ago
at this point you're probably better off going to a torrent site and search for 'dual-audio'
- Root_Denied 11mo ago
  This is unfortunately the answer - VLC/MPV would allow you to select the dubbed audio and also select the EN-US subtitles that are based on the original audio. GabeN saying that piracy is first and foremost a service problem is still right on the money.
jwrallie 11mo ago
If you ever need to hack some subs by yourself, whisper.cpp can output .srt files and you can run the small or medium models even on modest hardware.
- redwall_hp 11mo ago
  CrunchyRoll did something like that to the Re:Zero dub's captions, and it's a disgrace. Every single proper noun is wrong. It messes up every fantasy item/place/monster/etc name, and can't distinguish between the Rem/Ram/Rom characters. It also has no concept of of which character is talking, and interprets dialogues as singular sentences.

charcircuit 11mo ago

The mass market has already responded that they want dubbed anime. It doesn't make sense to invest into subtitles. Maybe it's time to accept that you are not the target audience anymore of western anime distributors.

johnny22 11mo ago
you still need to subtitle the japanese text in signs, chat messages and other places that appear on the screen.
- charcircuit 11mo ago
  I am saying that they can get away with lower quality subtitles in such places because the average user does not care that much about it. The target audience is not the same as when they first started doing subtitles and it doesn't make business sense anymore. Anime is not special. If the rest of the video streaming industry can get away with simpler subtitles, then Crunchyroll can too.
  - PaulHoule 11mo ago
    People that are into anime are into anime because it is special. JoJo's Bizzare Adventure is cool when Marvel movies aren't because JoJo was made by one mangaka and a Marvel movie is made by a committee of committees.
    - deleted 11mo ago
      [deleted]
Daiz 11mo ago
Quality typesetting is just as important for dubs as it is for subs, actually! All that on-screen text will be there regardless of which audio track you are using.
cosmic_cheese 11mo ago
That number varies depending on who you ask, with CR being one of the sources that claims a heavier share of dub watchers, but half their business is now dubbing/localization (by way of Funimation merger) so it may not be the most objective source. Either way it’s bad business to throw some of your most loyal customers under the bus, regardless of how big of a portion they represent. Dub viewers tend to be more casual and fickle and will largely evaporate once the zeitgeist of popular media moves from anime onto something else.

NoahZuniga 11mo ago

> With such typesetting-hostile standards to deal with, Crunchyroll had basically two choices for how to make sublicensing to Amazon and Netflix work with their existing subtitles that feature actual typesetting: Either 1) try to negotiate with the services for permission to make use of more TTML capabilities (that the subtitle renderers of said services should already support!) or 2) start mangling subtitles with typesetting into something compatible with the awful subtitling standards of the general streaming services. Couldn't they also provide Amazon and Netflix a version of the video stream with baked in subtitles?

Daiz 11mo ago
Both services explicitly disallow this by default in their delivery specifications, unfortunately. Netflix: https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/215148917-Full-Non-Branded-Delivery-Specification-v9-3 https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.com/hc/en-us/articles/215... > Netflix requires a non-subtitled version of the content. Netflix defines “non-subtitled” as the presence of main titles, end credits, location call-outs, and other supportive/creative text, but no burned-in subtitled dialogue, regardless of the language in the primary video. Amazon: https://videocentral.amazon.com/support/delivery-experience/delivery-overview/global-packaging-requirements https://videocentral.amazon.com/support/delivery-experience/... > Video > Global packaging requires component asset packages to be delivered with a semi-textless video file that can be localized with discrete subtitles and audio dubbing. > Also known as “Texted with no subtitles,” “Textless with main, ends, and graphic text,” and “Non-subtitled”, Prime Video defines semi-textless as a video master without burned-in subtitles, regardless of the language.
bonecrusher2102 11mo ago
Those vendors likely won’t accept hardsubs, because it would mean 10 video files for 10 languages, instead of soft subs where you get 1 video file 10 languages (10 different subtitle files). But here’s the other thing - CR could have used the ASS subs on their website and given the less-dynamic sub files to their vendors. You can save a master subtitle file in whatever format you want.
- 11mo ago

kazinator 11mo ago

There is a solution: learn Japanese!

rs186 11mo ago
I guess it's easy to type it out on the keyboard. How long did it take you to learn a language to arrive at a level where you can watch a movie/TV program with tons of idioms and cultural references and easily understand > 95% of it?
- nickitolas 11mo ago
  Not who you were asking but for me about 1800 hours of study+srs+reading+listening for simple shows (not "tons of idioms". Or at least not ones Im not already familiar with). This was for japanese, european languages should be easier.
- Anonyneko 11mo ago
  A few years (I'm a slow learner), but it was worth it because of the sheer amount of Japanese content that I consume.
kobebrookskC3 11mo ago
そんな暇ねぇよ
- kazinator 11mo ago
  アニメーをたくさん見られる暇あるなら、勉強する時間だってあるはずだぜ。
  - deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]

nextworddev 11mo ago

Considering how Crunchyroll started out by streaming ripped off anime content, hope they fail

FooBarWidget 11mo ago
It has been a loooong time since that. I'm pretty happy they not only went the legal route, but also were successful doing it while retaining a relatively large library. They could have failed and shut down. Remember that back then, Japanese producers didn't take overseas demand seriously, many of them don't even know that it existed or that there were many fansubs.
- nextworddev 11mo ago
  They basically infringed copyright and ripped off Japanese animators, and took the legal route so they can extract more money… sounds like your run of the mill Taiwanese CD rip business back in the 90s..

renewiltord 11mo ago

Tried watching some CR content on Amazon Prime. Unusable. The subs are garbage. Better quality from Netflix which is a freaking random host not even anime focused. Had to cancel the CR sub. Literally unwatchable

samlevy0515 11mo ago

[dead]

rpgbr 11mo ago

Let me guess: AI?

m10i 11mo ago

A similar issue has been plaguing the manga industry since "The Great Scanlator Purge" that took place a few years ago, leaving only the "official" Viz media-contracted translators in the wake of the ruins. For some reason, this change came with a general unwillingness on the translators part to correct, or translate, concepts that virtually all fan translators would've been happy to do. Here's some examples (there are many more): 1) the explanation of puns and hidden meanings in the kanji used to describe names, locations, special abilities, jokes, which honorifics are being used currently (if any), etc. of which there are usually many. Understanding/being aware of this context used to be absolutely vital to the experience of reading manga. 2) there's a relatively new manga called "Versus", in which humans from parallel earths, in parallel universes all merge into the same universe, and their planets are also merged together. In the english version, Viz translates one of those worlds as "Indignia", which doesn't mean anything. However, the Japanese for this world is "怒ど神しん界かい" (Doshinkai), which is literally interpreted as "World of the Angry God", or "Mad God World". They took it upon themselves to make similar changes for all the other worlds, obscuring their original meanings as intended by the author... why? Beats me. Now, one could make the argument that "Mad God World" doesn't sound good in english, so the Viz translators change is an improvement, which is not unreasonable. However, any half-decent fan translator would've simply left a footnote like "the literal Japanese interpretation is X; I changed it to Indignia because...". Problem solved! Don't just retcon things because you feel like it without explaining yourself. And if you won't explain yourself, then leave it as is. 3) english One Piece readers often have no idea just how many things are lost in translation; One Piece is filled to the brim with puns, double-entendre's, and foreshadowing, which has always been a significant part of its appeal, and is now nowhere to be found via the official providers. 4) Physical signs, such as things written on buildings, on somebody's clothing, or even on a stop sign, are usually not translated. 5) cover pages! You wouldn't know it anymore, but manga often has cover pages (often officially colorized) with extra comments and tidbits from the authors. Fans would include these pages in their scanlations. Viz pretends they don't exist. I can only imagine the thought process of whoever's making these decisions at Viz (or its parent company Shueisha) resembles something like "westerners don't care about that stuff. Stop wasting precious time and resources trying to explain it". They don't quite seem to understand how badly they have diluted the manga reading experience in the west, especially for those of us that grew up reading this stuff, way before it reached mainstream popularity.

rixtox 11mo ago

Netflix implements "imgsub"[1] - it actually delivers a zipped archive of transparent images to the player. So technically they can pre-render positioned typesetted subtitles on server and render them as images overlay, as long as there's no animated text effects. In general, streaming services have to ensure maximum compatibility when playing their contents on all kinds of devices - high end and low end. For which on low end device it could be very resource constraining to render typesetted subtitles. There are other platforms where all video playback have to be managed by the platform system frameworks with limited format support, and streaming services can't do much about it. The priority of streaming service is extending their market reach, and I think Crunchyroll itself is facing the same challenge of market reaching. I think the right solution is trying to get typesetted subtitles, and the end-to-end workflow - creation, packaging, delivery, rendering with adaptation (device capabilities, user preferences, localizations etc) all standardized. A more efficient workflow is needed, so a single source of subtitle is able to generate a set of renditions suitable for different player render capabilities. Chrunchyroll should actively participate in these standard bodies and push for adaption for more features and support in the streaming industry. [1]: https://netflixsubs.app/docs/netflix/features/imgsub https://netflixsubs.app/docs/netflix/features/imgsub

Daiz 11mo ago
Unfortunately, as the link describes, Netflix only makes this available for a very limited set of languages, while everyone else is stuck with the extremely limited text-based standards. Frankly, those text-based subtitle standards are quite maddening on their own. Netflix's text-based subtitle rendering seems to support a much wider set of TTML features than what it actually allows subtitle providers to use - so if these restrictions were to be slightly relaxed, providers could start offering better subtitles for anime immediately with no additional effort from Netflix.
- mook 11mo ago
  What Netflix supports on their main website might not be what they care about, though; you used to be able to watch Netflix on the Nintendo Wii, and they probably still have some users on stupidly old smart TVs.

thot_experiment 11mo ago

Sort of unrelated, but has anyone else noticed that there are a lot of subtitling errors in netflix shows recently? Two I noticed yesterday: "natural world" -> "national world" "cede power" -> "seed power" I guess they're just machine transcribing it without oversight now?

keane 11mo ago
Yes. Even in their kinda flagship title right now, A House of Dynamite: [14:08] "I'm told high, Jerry." -> "I'm told… Hi, Jerry." (in response to being asked "What's your level of confidence on that?") I always wonder why they don't have a way to upload the shooting script as a starting point so they could then make changes from there.
QuiDortDine 11mo ago
Welcome to the future! Do you feel disrupted yet?
csomar 11mo ago
Netflix dumps this task to third-party vendors. Theoretically, they should vet and verify the work quality but it's probably a race to the very bottom.
zdc1 11mo ago
It's only a matter of time before the incorrect translations become standard english, and the correct translations become "formal" or even "archaisms". We're truly seeded our language to a bunch of crappy algorithms...

montakaoh 11mo ago

Yeah, ASS rendering was a big problem for me when I was making some online subtitling software. I ended up on using https://github.com/ThaUnknown/jassub https://github.com/ThaUnknown/jassub + using Mediabunny to render a "subtitles" media track on top rendered on a canvas. The result works pretty well, e.g. https://www.translate.mom/app/task/2UicdIqRBg0f https://www.translate.mom/app/task/2UicdIqRBg0f

sqidyyy 11mo ago

Incredibly detailed article, thanks for that. The blog software still uses example.com in html head, RSS feed and sitemap XML.

Daiz 11mo ago
Good catch, thanks - I literally built the site alongside the article, so there's still some rough edges here and there.

jahsome 11mo ago

As someone who doesn't watch anime, this article reminds me of when a coworker sends a screenshot with zero context and says something like "is this supposed to be like this?" Maybe it's a spectrum thing, but I find it beyond lazy and insulting. In the article, there's zero explanation of what the actual issue is, at least in the first few paragraphs. It just seems to say the subtitles are bad with some examples and puts the burden on the reader to determine why. Is the issue the subtitle's location on the screen ? Contrast or font? Quality of translations? Again, it's probably a spectrum thing, but without any context I find it overwhelming and overstimulating.

Daiz 11mo ago
Well... the very first paragraph of the article does say with highlighting how "the presentation quality for translations of on-screen text has taken a total nosedive". And then it shows visual examples of the new bad quality and gives comparison screenshots demonstrating good quality shortly after.
- jahsome 11mo ago
  The article says there's a nosedive. But by what standard(s)? See the questions I already posted in my original response. Both the "good" and "bad" quality examples contain subtitles with no discernible difference. All examples contain legible subtitles. So where's the "nosedive"? There's clearly some anime-specific context and nuance that is NOT communicated with context-less screencaps. Perhaps the article wasn't written for someone unfamiliar with anime, and I'm not meant to understand, but it would be helpful to have the difference explained. Not to mention the improved accessibility for screen readers or folks with sensory processing issues like myself. At a minimum, marking up the image would be helpful. Circle things. Arrows. Help me understand, don't drop me into unfamiliar territory and leave me to guess.
  - GolDDranks 11mo ago
    The difference is that when there is text on the original video material, in the good examples the translations are positioned in the proximity of the original texts, and styled similarly, which makes it easier to understand what is translation of what, and generally improves immersion. In the bad examples, the translations for the texts are mixed with the lines the characters are speaking, which makes it harder to follow.

protocolture 11mo ago

I was wondering why chunchyroll subtitles were dirt when viewed through prime.

flobosg 11mo ago

Related discussion from three weeks ago: Why did Crunchyroll's subtitles just get worse? – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45458973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45458973

Jackson__ 11mo ago

As someone who has spent decidedly too many hours in Aegisubs to create at least somewhat decent subtitles, for projects which have long ago gone the way of the DMCA, these changes feel quite insulting. ASS has been a perfectly cromulent subtitle format and should've been widely adopted. Though on a related topic, on Netflix it is not just the subtitling that is bad, the translations are awful too. They are cutting every corner so hard I fear they might become a circle.

leche 11mo ago

Netflix has started showing simplified subtitles recently. We watch with subtitles on and these inaccurate subtitles are infuriating. It's part of their "second screen" strategy I think - people are on their phones while they're watching, so don't make them try too hard to read the subs.

Blackthorn 11mo ago

Those My Dress Up Darling Blu-ray subtitles are an abomination, holy shit.