3 ms·

Electronic voting and mail voting are very different things though.

by tempestn 1y ago

vasco 1y ago
They both share the fact that you don't see your vote enter a ballot box.
- samtp 1y ago
  Well "mail in voting" in Washington state pretty much means you drop off your ballot in a drop box in your neighborhood. Which is pretty much the same thing as putting it in a ballot box.
  - arsome 1y ago
    One of these things is much easier to burn or otherwise tamper with.
    - trevoragilbert 1y ago
      You should research what’s inside the boxes in Oregon before just assuming they’re easier to tamper with.
      - maxdamantus 1y ago
        Doesn't look difficult: https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/ballot-box-fires https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/ballot-box-fires (yes, that's in Oregon)
        bee_rider 1y ago
        I’m not sure what’s so special in Oregon’s ballot boxes. But, tampering that is detected (don’t need much special to detect a burning box I guess!) is not a complete failure for a system. If any elections were close enough for a box to matter, they could have rerun them.
  - maxdamantus 1y ago
    Here in NZ when I've been to vote, there are usually a couple of party affiliates at the voting location, doing what one of the parent posts described: > You can stay there and wait for the count at the end of the day if you want to. And if you watch the election night news, you'll see footage of multiple people counting the votes from the ballot boxes, again with various people observing to check that nothing dodgy is going on. Having everyone just put their ballots in a postbox seems like a good way remove public trust from the electoral system, because noone's standing around waiting for the postie to collect the mail, or looking at what happens in the mail truck, or the rest of the mail distribution process. I'm sure I've seen reports in the US of people burning postboxes around election time. Things like this give more excuses to treat election results as illegitimate, which I believe has been an issue over there. (Yes, we do also have advanced voting in NZ, but I think they're considered "special votes" and are counted separately .. the elections are largely determined on the day by in-person votes, with the special votes being confirmed some days later)
    - samtp 11mo ago
      > I'm sure I've seen reports in the US of people burning postboxes around election time Yeah that happened once in OR then got re-plastered all over the news dozens of times. I'm sure you can find way more incidents of intimidation, fighting, long lines and other issues for in-person voting. But individual incidents does not mean that there is anything wrong with a system that has worked for decades in multiple states.
  - belorn 1y ago
    In Sweden, mail/early votes get sent through the postal system to the official ballot box for those votes. In 2018, a local election had to be redone because the post delivered votes late. Mail delivery occasionally have packaged delayed or lost, and votes are note immune to this problem. In one case the post also gave the votes to an unauthorized person, through the votes did end up at the right place. It is a small but distinct difference between mail/early voting and putting the votes directly into the ballot box.
  - _heimdall 1y ago
    How is that the same? The description of voting in the Netherlands is that you can see your ballot physically go into a clear box and stay to see that exact box be opened and all ballots tallied. Dropping a ballot in a box in tour neighborhood helps ensure nothing with regards to the actually ballot count.
- esseph 1y ago
  Seeing your ballot drop in a box is no indicator the vote is actually recorded in the grand tally, or what was recorded for your vote.
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    My county lets you look up if it was received. You can vote on Election Day in person if they don’t.
    - panarky 1y ago
      My county sends me a text message when they've counted my ballot.
      - esseph 1y ago
        My point is, you don't actually know that. Sure you got a notification! That doesn't mean anything. Even with human counted ballots or electronic ballots. Following the chain of custody from vote to verification, in some way, would be nice.
    - kaashif 1y ago
      You have to trust that whole system. Maybe you do, I don't know the details of how any of that works. When I vote in person, I know all the officials there from various parties are just like...looking at the box for the whole day to make sure everything is counted. It's much easier to understand and trust.
- hahajk 1y ago
  I mail in to Florida and I can log in and see that they received it and it was counted. So, close to seeing it enter the box.
  - kaashif 1y ago
    That doesn't seem at all like the same thing as literally seeing the ballot enter the box in the presence of observers from all parties. There's so much more you have to trust.
    - throwaway7783 1y ago
      Even with ballot boxes you still need to trust what happens after ballot enters the box.
- bee_rider 1y ago
  It could be possible to have a system like: If you wish, you can write a phrase on your ballot. The phrases and their corresponding vote are broadcast (on tv, internet, etc). So if you want to validate that your vote was tallied correctly, write a unique phrase. Or you could pick a random 30 digit number, collisions should be zero-probability, right? I mean, this would be annoying because people would write slurs and advertisements, and the government would have to broadcast them. But, it seems pretty robust. I’d suggest the state handle the number issuing, but then they could record who they issues which numbers to, and the winning party could go about rounding up their opposition, etc.
  - parliament32 1y ago
    Voting systems require that there be no way to prove that you voted a certain way, otherwise it opens the market for vote-selling.
    - bee_rider 1y ago
      Hmm, good point. Googling around a bit, it sounds like there are systems that let you verify that your ballot made it, but not necessarily that it was counted correctly. (For this reason, I guess?)
- heroic 1y ago
  In India we have electronic voting and we get to see our vote going in the ballot box.
  - vasco 1y ago
    You can see electrons or what do you mean?
- edoceo 1y ago
  Is it possible to trace your own vote after? There has to be a technical solution to ensure that your own vote was counted
  - vincnetas 1y ago
    yes there is. Check double envelope mail in voting mechanics.
    - edoceo 1y ago
      That's just that they got my ballot. How to ensure they allocated my specific vote to the specific candidate/measure.
- mulmen 1y ago
  In Washington you can track your ballot return status: https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/data-research/ballot-status-codes https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/data-research/ballot-status...
- vincnetas 1y ago
  With proper mail voting you have a way to verify that your mailed in vote is counted. (AI generated explanation) How the double-envelope system works Inner “secrecy” envelope You mark your ballot, fold it, and slip it into an unmarked inner envelope. No name or identifying info is on this envelope, so your choices stay anonymous. Outer declaration envelope The inner envelope goes inside a larger outer envelope that carries: – A ballot ID/barcode unique to you. – A signature line that must match the one on file with your election office. In many states, a detachable privacy flap or perforated strip hides the signature until election officials open the outer envelope, keeping the ballot secret.

Electronic voting and mail voting are very different things though.

vasco 1y ago

They both share the fact that you don't see your vote enter a ballot box.

samtp 1y ago
Well "mail in voting" in Washington state pretty much means you drop off your ballot in a drop box in your neighborhood. Which is pretty much the same thing as putting it in a ballot box.
- arsome 1y ago
  One of these things is much easier to burn or otherwise tamper with.
  - trevoragilbert 1y ago
    You should research what’s inside the boxes in Oregon before just assuming they’re easier to tamper with.
    - maxdamantus 1y ago
      Doesn't look difficult: https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/ballot-box-fires https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/ballot-box-fires (yes, that's in Oregon)
      - bee_rider 1y ago
        I’m not sure what’s so special in Oregon’s ballot boxes. But, tampering that is detected (don’t need much special to detect a burning box I guess!) is not a complete failure for a system. If any elections were close enough for a box to matter, they could have rerun them.
- maxdamantus 1y ago
  Here in NZ when I've been to vote, there are usually a couple of party affiliates at the voting location, doing what one of the parent posts described: > You can stay there and wait for the count at the end of the day if you want to. And if you watch the election night news, you'll see footage of multiple people counting the votes from the ballot boxes, again with various people observing to check that nothing dodgy is going on. Having everyone just put their ballots in a postbox seems like a good way remove public trust from the electoral system, because noone's standing around waiting for the postie to collect the mail, or looking at what happens in the mail truck, or the rest of the mail distribution process. I'm sure I've seen reports in the US of people burning postboxes around election time. Things like this give more excuses to treat election results as illegitimate, which I believe has been an issue over there. (Yes, we do also have advanced voting in NZ, but I think they're considered "special votes" and are counted separately .. the elections are largely determined on the day by in-person votes, with the special votes being confirmed some days later)
  - samtp 11mo ago
    > I'm sure I've seen reports in the US of people burning postboxes around election time Yeah that happened once in OR then got re-plastered all over the news dozens of times. I'm sure you can find way more incidents of intimidation, fighting, long lines and other issues for in-person voting. But individual incidents does not mean that there is anything wrong with a system that has worked for decades in multiple states.
- belorn 1y ago
  In Sweden, mail/early votes get sent through the postal system to the official ballot box for those votes. In 2018, a local election had to be redone because the post delivered votes late. Mail delivery occasionally have packaged delayed or lost, and votes are note immune to this problem. In one case the post also gave the votes to an unauthorized person, through the votes did end up at the right place. It is a small but distinct difference between mail/early voting and putting the votes directly into the ballot box.
- _heimdall 1y ago
  How is that the same? The description of voting in the Netherlands is that you can see your ballot physically go into a clear box and stay to see that exact box be opened and all ballots tallied. Dropping a ballot in a box in tour neighborhood helps ensure nothing with regards to the actually ballot count.
esseph 1y ago
Seeing your ballot drop in a box is no indicator the vote is actually recorded in the grand tally, or what was recorded for your vote.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  My county lets you look up if it was received. You can vote on Election Day in person if they don’t.
  - panarky 1y ago
    My county sends me a text message when they've counted my ballot.
    - esseph 1y ago
      My point is, you don't actually know that. Sure you got a notification! That doesn't mean anything. Even with human counted ballots or electronic ballots. Following the chain of custody from vote to verification, in some way, would be nice.
  - kaashif 1y ago
    You have to trust that whole system. Maybe you do, I don't know the details of how any of that works. When I vote in person, I know all the officials there from various parties are just like...looking at the box for the whole day to make sure everything is counted. It's much easier to understand and trust.
hahajk 1y ago
I mail in to Florida and I can log in and see that they received it and it was counted. So, close to seeing it enter the box.
- kaashif 1y ago
  That doesn't seem at all like the same thing as literally seeing the ballot enter the box in the presence of observers from all parties. There's so much more you have to trust.
  - throwaway7783 1y ago
    Even with ballot boxes you still need to trust what happens after ballot enters the box.
bee_rider 1y ago
It could be possible to have a system like: If you wish, you can write a phrase on your ballot. The phrases and their corresponding vote are broadcast (on tv, internet, etc). So if you want to validate that your vote was tallied correctly, write a unique phrase. Or you could pick a random 30 digit number, collisions should be zero-probability, right? I mean, this would be annoying because people would write slurs and advertisements, and the government would have to broadcast them. But, it seems pretty robust. I’d suggest the state handle the number issuing, but then they could record who they issues which numbers to, and the winning party could go about rounding up their opposition, etc.
- parliament32 1y ago
  Voting systems require that there be no way to prove that you voted a certain way, otherwise it opens the market for vote-selling.
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    Hmm, good point. Googling around a bit, it sounds like there are systems that let you verify that your ballot made it, but not necessarily that it was counted correctly. (For this reason, I guess?)
heroic 1y ago
In India we have electronic voting and we get to see our vote going in the ballot box.
- vasco 1y ago
  You can see electrons or what do you mean?
edoceo 1y ago
Is it possible to trace your own vote after? There has to be a technical solution to ensure that your own vote was counted
- vincnetas 1y ago
  yes there is. Check double envelope mail in voting mechanics.
  - edoceo 1y ago
    That's just that they got my ballot. How to ensure they allocated my specific vote to the specific candidate/measure.
mulmen 1y ago
In Washington you can track your ballot return status: https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/data-research/ballot-status-codes https://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/data-research/ballot-status...
vincnetas 1y ago
With proper mail voting you have a way to verify that your mailed in vote is counted. (AI generated explanation) How the double-envelope system works Inner “secrecy” envelope You mark your ballot, fold it, and slip it into an unmarked inner envelope. No name or identifying info is on this envelope, so your choices stay anonymous. Outer declaration envelope The inner envelope goes inside a larger outer envelope that carries: – A ballot ID/barcode unique to you. – A signature line that must match the one on file with your election office. In many states, a detachable privacy flap or perforated strip hides the signature until election officials open the outer envelope, keeping the ballot secret.