4 ms·

Corporations exist at the pleasure of government do they not? They are not some naturally-existing thing.

atonse 1y ago
I would think that sort of framing implies that the government gives them permission to exist. Rather than, the natural state is that they exist unless they do something bad enough to be shut down. Unless you mean, they need the government's "permission" to even file to become a corporation... But even in that case, you aren't asking for permission, you're doing the old school equivalent of signing up for a domain, you're submitting a filing and reserving a spot for that name/ID.
- ElevenLathe 1y ago
  It's more than that. When you file to incorporate, there is a birth. A new person is created, one that can potentially never die. Yes, it's routine, but it wasn't always, and it doesn't need to be forever. The ability to create a new, fake, person in order to shield yourself and your business partners from liability is a not a right. It is a deliberate policy that some sovereign jurisdictions allow their citizens.
- palmotea 1y ago
  > I would think that sort of framing implies that the government gives them permission to exist. > Rather than, the natural state is that they exist unless they do something bad enough to be shut down. JFC, come on. Corporations are legal entities and have no existence separate from the law. If they even have a natural state, that natural state is non-existence.
  - travisjungroth 1y ago
    > All corporations are devoid of inherent nature. > There is no inherent nature whatsoever. > What is inherently existing is empty. > What is empty is inherently existing. Nāgārjuna vs Delaware
  - atonse 1y ago
    Yeah I think we're splitting hairs and actually aren't in any sort of disagreement here. I 100% agree that you have to be registered on paper with a government entity to get all the legal protections, insurance, etc etc etc. I've been a business owner for nearly 20 years. Like, a real business, with real paperwork and insurance and all that. I'm thinking of all the unofficial mom and pops that transact and do business every day without having a proper legal entity. so it's more of a "does that count as a business even if they didn't file articles of incorporation?" of course it does, as far as its customers are concerned. Think of the idea of "this guy has a lawn care business, I pay him every week to mow my lawn for 10 years", as far as his customers are concerned, he didn't need to get permission from the government to start doing that. And this sort of thing happens all the time. I am NOT arguing whether a business where you filed articles is a legal entity, etc. There's no question that they are. Hope that clarifies my point.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      I mean, if Sam Altman wants to run OpenAI as individual proprietorship, without the limited liability that corporate shield gives, he's totally welcome to do so, and that would require far less paperwork.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > If they even have a natural state, that natural state is non-existence A corporation is a legal fiction that describes an association of people. The association is real and has a natural state. The corporate existence does not. (Analogous: a house is real. Land is real. Property is a social construct.)
    - atonse 1y ago
      This is exactly my point that you articulated in way fewer words, thanks.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Corporations exist at the pleasure of government do they not? No. “At the pleasure of” means total discretion. The government can’t just stop letting businesses incorporate because it doesn’t like how a county voted.
- zeroonetwothree 1y ago
  There is no constitutional right to incorporate. Theoretically states could stop it at any time. Although they would still have to honor corporations formed in other states so it’s of limited effect.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > There is no constitutional right to incorporate The Constitution directly grants very few individual rights. It’s mostly a document about what the government can’t do. > Theoretically states could stop it at any time Sure. That’s not “at the pleasure of.” Driver’s licenses are not issued “at the pleasure of” a state. Neither are marriage certificates. They’re issued as a matter of process that binds both the issuer and recipient to a predictable set of rules.
  - terminalshort 1y ago
    But there is a constitutional right to equal protection under the law. So while a state can say "everybody can incorporate" or "nobody can incorporate" without scrutiny, there are some pretty hash restrictions on rules that say some people can incorporate and others can't, especially if those restrictions look like they are written to be retaliatory against someone who pissed off the government.
- hrimfaxi 1y ago
  Why can't the government do that? Is it because the government created laws that limited its total discretion? That is besides my point. The people allow for corporations to exist is what I was getting at, and in the US businesses incorporate at the state level. So asking why California has a say in the structure of a company incorporated in it seemed odd to me on its face.

I would think that sort of framing implies that the government gives them permission to exist. Rather than, the natural state is that they exist unless they do something bad enough to be shut down. Unless you mean, they need the government's "permission" to even file to become a corporation... But even in that case, you aren't asking for permission, you're doing the old school equivalent of signing up for a domain, you're submitting a filing and reserving a spot for that name/ID.

ElevenLathe 1y ago
It's more than that. When you file to incorporate, there is a birth. A new person is created, one that can potentially never die. Yes, it's routine, but it wasn't always, and it doesn't need to be forever. The ability to create a new, fake, person in order to shield yourself and your business partners from liability is a not a right. It is a deliberate policy that some sovereign jurisdictions allow their citizens.
palmotea 1y ago
> I would think that sort of framing implies that the government gives them permission to exist. > Rather than, the natural state is that they exist unless they do something bad enough to be shut down. JFC, come on. Corporations are legal entities and have no existence separate from the law. If they even have a natural state, that natural state is non-existence.
- travisjungroth 1y ago
  > All corporations are devoid of inherent nature. > There is no inherent nature whatsoever. > What is inherently existing is empty. > What is empty is inherently existing. Nāgārjuna vs Delaware
- atonse 1y ago
  Yeah I think we're splitting hairs and actually aren't in any sort of disagreement here. I 100% agree that you have to be registered on paper with a government entity to get all the legal protections, insurance, etc etc etc. I've been a business owner for nearly 20 years. Like, a real business, with real paperwork and insurance and all that. I'm thinking of all the unofficial mom and pops that transact and do business every day without having a proper legal entity. so it's more of a "does that count as a business even if they didn't file articles of incorporation?" of course it does, as far as its customers are concerned. Think of the idea of "this guy has a lawn care business, I pay him every week to mow my lawn for 10 years", as far as his customers are concerned, he didn't need to get permission from the government to start doing that. And this sort of thing happens all the time. I am NOT arguing whether a business where you filed articles is a legal entity, etc. There's no question that they are. Hope that clarifies my point.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    I mean, if Sam Altman wants to run OpenAI as individual proprietorship, without the limited liability that corporate shield gives, he's totally welcome to do so, and that would require far less paperwork.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > If they even have a natural state, that natural state is non-existence A corporation is a legal fiction that describes an association of people. The association is real and has a natural state. The corporate existence does not. (Analogous: a house is real. Land is real. Property is a social construct.)
  - atonse 1y ago
    This is exactly my point that you articulated in way fewer words, thanks.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Corporations exist at the pleasure of government do they not? No. “At the pleasure of” means total discretion. The government can’t just stop letting businesses incorporate because it doesn’t like how a county voted.

zeroonetwothree 1y ago
There is no constitutional right to incorporate. Theoretically states could stop it at any time. Although they would still have to honor corporations formed in other states so it’s of limited effect.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > There is no constitutional right to incorporate The Constitution directly grants very few individual rights. It’s mostly a document about what the government can’t do. > Theoretically states could stop it at any time Sure. That’s not “at the pleasure of.” Driver’s licenses are not issued “at the pleasure of” a state. Neither are marriage certificates. They’re issued as a matter of process that binds both the issuer and recipient to a predictable set of rules.
- terminalshort 1y ago
  But there is a constitutional right to equal protection under the law. So while a state can say "everybody can incorporate" or "nobody can incorporate" without scrutiny, there are some pretty hash restrictions on rules that say some people can incorporate and others can't, especially if those restrictions look like they are written to be retaliatory against someone who pissed off the government.
hrimfaxi 1y ago
Why can't the government do that? Is it because the government created laws that limited its total discretion? That is besides my point. The people allow for corporations to exist is what I was getting at, and in the US businesses incorporate at the state level. So asking why California has a say in the structure of a company incorporated in it seemed odd to me on its face.