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rkozik1989 1y ago
Israel stole US nuclear secrets to create their own nuclear weapons program, they killed American navy men, they destroyed 90% of the buildings in Gaza and very blatantly committed genocide in the process of doing so, Palestinians prisoners are commonly held without trials or charges i.e. they're hostages. Zionism literally cannot exist without them committing ethnic cleansing because everywhere Israelis live used to be Palestinian properties. Honestly, what is your point? What are you seeing that the rest of us aren't getting? For the record, my mother's family is mostly Sephardic.
- dlubarov 1y ago
  > they killed American navy men This was about 50 years ago, was accidental, and Israel apologized and paid reparations soon after. This is a pretty clear example of double standards for Israel - no other country gets demonized for friendly fire incidents.
  - Stevvo 1y ago
    None of the sailors that survived believe it was accidental. They claim it was a deliberate false-flag attack.
    - dlubarov 1y ago
      The claims that it was deliberate boil down to "they must have known because there were identifying marks", which can be said about almost any friendly fire incident. In reality, not every operation is executed competently. Plenty of militaries have shot down their own airplanes, for example, despite the existence of several safeguards designed to prevent that.
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        Alternatively, Israel may well have identified the ship and decided to sink it regardless. The USS Liberty was a SigInt ship that was well-known for monitoring wireless transmissions to hold nations accountable from offshore. Israel, at the time, was engaged in an internationally condemned and illegal military operation in the Golan Heights, and may just as well have sank it consciously to prevent the US from taking leverage of the situation. We may never know the truth, taking Israel's Military Censor into account.
        dlubarov 1y ago
        Your speculation seems a bit farfetched - there's no evidence that intelligence collected by USS Liberty was hurting Israel, and if Israel's goal was to avoid scrutiny, attacking an expensive asset of the world's superpower would have been rather counterproductive. Israel captured the Golan Heights because it had been used to shell Israeli communities for decades, and that continued even after Syria officially accepted the ceasefire. It would be unreasonable to expect Israel to tolerate that sort of aggression; no capable military would do so.
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        > It would be unreasonable to expect Israel to tolerate that sort of aggression It would also be unreasonable to allow Israel to colonize the annexed territory in violation of international law, especially if the goal is to reduce the exposure of Israeli citizens to reparation attacks. The Knesset isn't exactly known for reasonable decisions though, and I'm willing to extend that judgement to the upper echelons of Israeli leadership as well. Maybe I'm bigoted. Again - evidence-based speculation would be of use if the IDF didn't directly censor all domestic reporting and investigations. An honest postmortum was never going to be an option, even if Israel bombed the Liberty with custards and coffee. Cui bono, you decide.
        dlubarov 11mo ago
        > if the IDF didn't directly censor all domestic reporting and investigations This just seems like another double standard. What modern military doesn't censor reporting during a war in its own territory? > An honest postmortum Israel and the US settled the matter (with the help of substantial reparations) and went on to become allies. Why would they bother trying to convince anyone else? And what would the convincing postmortum you're expecting look like? Some kind of third-party investigation? Can you name any military that willingly subjects itself to such investigations?
- lokar 11mo ago
  The started off settlement by legally buying property for wealth (mostly absentee) landlords, who were non-Palestinians (they lived in other part of the Ottoman Empire).
  - churchill 11mo ago
    If I setup a $10b trust fund to buy up Texan land, I can't unilaterally invade Texas and build my ethnostate on it after I've purchased, say, 6-7% of it. That's the percentage of Palestine the Zionists bought before expelling the indigenous people in the Nakba genocide. Likewise, if you legally purchase double-digit percentages of Indian, Chinese, Brit, Australian land, it doesn't give you the moral or legal precedent to expel the natives from the rest of their land and declare it your state.
    - lokar 11mo ago
      You can evict renters from the land and move in yourself. If they then take to violence against you, you have the right to defend yourself.
  - mikkupikku 11mo ago
    America bought the Louisiana Purchase from France. France never had any meaningful presence in that territory; being incapable of defending the territory should America decide to take it anyway is probably a big part of the reason they decided to accept money for it. Now my question: having purchased that land from France, did America have a right to eject the native people who lived there? Or did France in fact have no right to sell that land which, in all practical ways, actually belonged to the people who lived there? Israel "bought" that land from people who had no legitimate ownership of the land in the first place.
    - lokar 11mo ago
      That was a very different situation. That area had been under ottoman rule for generations. There was a long history of ownership.
baklavaEmperor 1y ago
Because when a nation starts believing its own myths of moral purity, it stops seeing the line between justice and domination. This is a dangerous line to cross.
- theobreuerweil 1y ago
  That might be true but, even if it is, it's a far cry from the statement that the Israeli government is singularly evil.
  - jedimind 1y ago
    [flagged]
bell-cot 1y ago
[flagged]
- jedimind 1y ago
  It's not just a numbers game. Many of those you've listed also only lasted a few years, while Israel's evil still continues after almost a century. "Operation Cast Thy Bread was a top-secret biological warfare operation conducted by the Haganah and later the Israel Defense Forces which began in April 1948, during the 1948 Palestine war. The Haganah used typhoid bacteria to contaminate drinking water wells in violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread Not to mention that Israel has dropped the equivalent of several nuclear bombs on a tiny open-air concentration camp with no possibility to flee.
  - theobreuerweil 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - buyucu 1y ago
      Is Europe or the US engaged in slave trade right now? Israel is committing mass murder right now. There is a difference between past evils that can't be helped and present evils that we have the power to stop.
      - theobreuerweil 11mo ago
        There is indeed a difference and I don’t think we’re disagreeing on that.
    - jedimind 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 11mo ago

[flagged]

rkozik1989 1y ago

Israel stole US nuclear secrets to create their own nuclear weapons program, they killed American navy men, they destroyed 90% of the buildings in Gaza and very blatantly committed genocide in the process of doing so, Palestinians prisoners are commonly held without trials or charges i.e. they're hostages. Zionism literally cannot exist without them committing ethnic cleansing because everywhere Israelis live used to be Palestinian properties. Honestly, what is your point? What are you seeing that the rest of us aren't getting? For the record, my mother's family is mostly Sephardic.

dlubarov 1y ago
> they killed American navy men This was about 50 years ago, was accidental, and Israel apologized and paid reparations soon after. This is a pretty clear example of double standards for Israel - no other country gets demonized for friendly fire incidents.
- Stevvo 1y ago
  None of the sailors that survived believe it was accidental. They claim it was a deliberate false-flag attack.
  - dlubarov 1y ago
    The claims that it was deliberate boil down to "they must have known because there were identifying marks", which can be said about almost any friendly fire incident. In reality, not every operation is executed competently. Plenty of militaries have shot down their own airplanes, for example, despite the existence of several safeguards designed to prevent that.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      Alternatively, Israel may well have identified the ship and decided to sink it regardless. The USS Liberty was a SigInt ship that was well-known for monitoring wireless transmissions to hold nations accountable from offshore. Israel, at the time, was engaged in an internationally condemned and illegal military operation in the Golan Heights, and may just as well have sank it consciously to prevent the US from taking leverage of the situation. We may never know the truth, taking Israel's Military Censor into account.
      - dlubarov 1y ago
        Your speculation seems a bit farfetched - there's no evidence that intelligence collected by USS Liberty was hurting Israel, and if Israel's goal was to avoid scrutiny, attacking an expensive asset of the world's superpower would have been rather counterproductive. Israel captured the Golan Heights because it had been used to shell Israeli communities for decades, and that continued even after Syria officially accepted the ceasefire. It would be unreasonable to expect Israel to tolerate that sort of aggression; no capable military would do so.
        bigyabai 11mo ago
        > It would be unreasonable to expect Israel to tolerate that sort of aggression It would also be unreasonable to allow Israel to colonize the annexed territory in violation of international law, especially if the goal is to reduce the exposure of Israeli citizens to reparation attacks. The Knesset isn't exactly known for reasonable decisions though, and I'm willing to extend that judgement to the upper echelons of Israeli leadership as well. Maybe I'm bigoted. Again - evidence-based speculation would be of use if the IDF didn't directly censor all domestic reporting and investigations. An honest postmortum was never going to be an option, even if Israel bombed the Liberty with custards and coffee. Cui bono, you decide.
        dlubarov 11mo ago
        > if the IDF didn't directly censor all domestic reporting and investigations This just seems like another double standard. What modern military doesn't censor reporting during a war in its own territory? > An honest postmortum Israel and the US settled the matter (with the help of substantial reparations) and went on to become allies. Why would they bother trying to convince anyone else? And what would the convincing postmortum you're expecting look like? Some kind of third-party investigation? Can you name any military that willingly subjects itself to such investigations?
lokar 11mo ago
The started off settlement by legally buying property for wealth (mostly absentee) landlords, who were non-Palestinians (they lived in other part of the Ottoman Empire).
- churchill 11mo ago
  If I setup a $10b trust fund to buy up Texan land, I can't unilaterally invade Texas and build my ethnostate on it after I've purchased, say, 6-7% of it. That's the percentage of Palestine the Zionists bought before expelling the indigenous people in the Nakba genocide. Likewise, if you legally purchase double-digit percentages of Indian, Chinese, Brit, Australian land, it doesn't give you the moral or legal precedent to expel the natives from the rest of their land and declare it your state.
  - lokar 11mo ago
    You can evict renters from the land and move in yourself. If they then take to violence against you, you have the right to defend yourself.
- mikkupikku 11mo ago
  America bought the Louisiana Purchase from France. France never had any meaningful presence in that territory; being incapable of defending the territory should America decide to take it anyway is probably a big part of the reason they decided to accept money for it. Now my question: having purchased that land from France, did America have a right to eject the native people who lived there? Or did France in fact have no right to sell that land which, in all practical ways, actually belonged to the people who lived there? Israel "bought" that land from people who had no legitimate ownership of the land in the first place.
  - lokar 11mo ago
    That was a very different situation. That area had been under ottoman rule for generations. There was a long history of ownership.

baklavaEmperor 1y ago

Because when a nation starts believing its own myths of moral purity, it stops seeing the line between justice and domination. This is a dangerous line to cross.

theobreuerweil 1y ago
That might be true but, even if it is, it's a far cry from the statement that the Israeli government is singularly evil.
- jedimind 1y ago
  [flagged]

bell-cot 1y ago

[flagged]

jedimind 1y ago
It's not just a numbers game. Many of those you've listed also only lasted a few years, while Israel's evil still continues after almost a century. "Operation Cast Thy Bread was a top-secret biological warfare operation conducted by the Haganah and later the Israel Defense Forces which began in April 1948, during the 1948 Palestine war. The Haganah used typhoid bacteria to contaminate drinking water wells in violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread Not to mention that Israel has dropped the equivalent of several nuclear bombs on a tiny open-air concentration camp with no possibility to flee.
- theobreuerweil 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - buyucu 1y ago
    Is Europe or the US engaged in slave trade right now? Israel is committing mass murder right now. There is a difference between past evils that can't be helped and present evils that we have the power to stop.
    - theobreuerweil 11mo ago
      There is indeed a difference and I don’t think we’re disagreeing on that.
  - jedimind 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 11mo ago