5 ms·

Helix and other new editors (kakoune comes to mind) always appealed to me because they seemed to have slightly more intuitive approaches to editing than vim, bu

by jsmailes 11mo ago

Helix and other new editors (kakoune comes to mind) always appealed to me because they seemed to have slightly more intuitive approaches to editing than vim, but I just don't think I can ever switch, purely because vim just exists everywhere I need it. It (or vi) is installed on practically every system I ever touch by default, and almost every IDE/editor under the sun supports vim keybinds either natively or via well-maintained plugins. It's the same problem with keyboard layouts: I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak, but nothing beats the convenience of always having guaranteed access to qwerty, everywhere I go.

scop 11mo ago
That keyboard layout is a great analogy. Maybe I would have tried Helix in my early twenties, but I’m too old for that now (30s lol).
- warmwaffles 11mo ago
  I was on sublime text for the last 12 years. I made the switch to helix and although I missed some features, it's been a great change. I never could get into the vim bindings, but helix's defaults are great and I don't need to go plugin hunting in order to make the editor functional. There's missing features I really want, but they'll be added eventually. Git blame in line, some scripting support, better find-replace across a project and not just the opened buffers. Just give it a try for a week or two straight. No using your other editors. Cold turkey. You'll be surprised at how quickly you'll relearn. It took me about three weeks using it full time to get decent. The first day or so were brutal.
lordleft 11mo ago
This is what is keeping me from trying Helix in a serious way. I don't want to learn slightly distinct vi-like keybindings and mess up my muscle memory.
- dkdcio 11mo ago
  same -- I wish Helix would just have a full vi-compatible mode, it would probably be enough to get me to switch the other thing for me is lack of the GitHub Copilot extension. I am far too used to having tab-complete. there's some effort for Helix extensions to handle this but it's not close to on-par last time I checked
  - airstrike 11mo ago
    Ask and you shall receive https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix
    - cycomanic 11mo ago
      I've tried evil helix and it is reasonable close to Vim, but still not quite the same (I don't remember but was running into several slight differences, which were causing enough adjustment that I gave up)
  - CorrectHorseBat 11mo ago
    But why then switch?
    - dkdcio 11mo ago
      from neovim to helix? I would prefer the configuration simplicity (while my neovim config is fairly stable and straightforward, it can be annoying to update) and better out-of-the-box defaults. I’d also be a lot more personally interested in contributing to the Rust codebase of Helix if I ever did run into bugs or features
thendrill 11mo ago
I have to agree. It is too similar to vim, yet it is not vim.... I dont get what is the value proposition here. I mean I feel helix is just stripped off SpaceVim ????
- kelvinjps10 11mo ago
  It's more intuitive, and some key binding are using home letters instead of symbols making it easier to reach
- evolighting 11mo ago
  My favorite one: "ggdG" didn't work no Helix; But more importantly,it reflects the reality that although they bear some resemblance, the design logic of vi and Helix are actually fundamentally different.
  - icen 11mo ago
    In helix that's %d (select-buffer, then delete). The selection-then-action design for helix is showing it's difference to vi, which is action-on-movement.
    - tux1968 11mo ago
      But Vim has visual-mode, which is select-then-action too.
      - dugidugout 11mo ago
        There's a mode for that!
      - eviks 11mo ago
        not really, vim's visual mode always extends selection, while in Helix the base mode selects with your base commands so you can act on the selection, but it doesn't extend to the next one. For example, moving by 2 words only selects the 2nd one, not both like in Visual mode. (although in this specific case of selecting everything this difference isn't visible)
lawn 11mo ago
Eh. I've used a couple of different keyboard layouts and different keyboards and I can still use regular keyboards and layouts just fine. It's just a matter of practice, which admittedly might be too much effort for little gain. I still use Neovim and I don't see myself ever using Helix or Kakoune.
noir_lord 11mo ago
It's a classic switching cost problem, to make it worth switching the effort either needs be below a threshold or the outcome has to be much better otherwise people won't switch - i.e. a killer feature/features.
lycopodiopsida 11mo ago
> I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak, but nothing beats the convenience of always having guaranteed access to qwerty, everywhere I go. Colemak/Dvorak is not about speed, but about comfort and avoiding RSI (though I would place the actual layout somewhere far down on the list, a proper ergonomic KB is top priority). Also, in my ~8 years on Colemak lack of access to it was a problem exactly 0 times. I don't type books on other people's computers, and if I would, typing blind on a keyboard I am not used to is anyway a hopeless endeavor.
- boterock 11mo ago
  And regarding availability, Colemak is now included in Windows 11, which makes it available out of the box in all 3 major OS's. Also, Colemak is an easy way to upgrade comfort in cases where you can't change the keyboard, like a laptop or shared computer.
  - DanOpcode 11mo ago
    Awesome to hear! Many organizations are restrictive with what's allowed to be installed on the computer, so this will be awesome. In one project I'm getting upgraded from Windows 10 to 11 any day now. Will be great to be able to use Colemak there as well.
- stronglikedan 11mo ago
  > avoiding RSI I tried all manner of keyboards over the years, and in my opinion, none of them solve RSI. I'm now back to a standard qwerty for the same reason as OP - they're just immediately available everywhere. What did help my no-longer-existent RSI was simple - I don't rest my wrists any more like I was taught in high school typing class (by an instructor that would whack our hands with a ruler if we were caught resting our wrists). I do have a bit of De Quervain's Tenosynovitis from the mouse, but I'm solving that with one of those hand stretchers that hook to your fingers and provide resistance when opening the hand. 100 reps a day (25x4) and I haven't really felt it in weeks. Turns out that working out the muscles opposite to the ones you think is the key (therapy putty did nothing).
hajile 11mo ago
> I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak The speed is about the same. The big colmak win for me was that my hands/arms didn't ache after long typing sessions. Ergonomics and not getting repetitive motion injuries matter to me more than compatibility (though I can still type in qwerty even if it's slower these days).
BowBun 11mo ago
> I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak, but nothing beats the convenience of always having guaranteed access to qwerty, everywhere I go. Citation needed. Of my 2 friends that have tried, neither have been able to reach their 'standard' typing speed after 1+ years of dvorak. Maybe they didn't try hard enough?
- miroljub 11mo ago
  > Citation needed. No, not needed. This is not an HN comment posting a subjective opinion, not a scientific work that requires real, or a Wikipedia article that requires any citation.
  - BowBun 11mo ago
    It's not an HN comment, not a scientific work, not a Wikipedia article. So what is it? Sorry, had to match your level of pedantery.
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
allknowingfrog 11mo ago
I switched from Qwerty to Dvorak in my 20s, and now from Vim to Helix in my 30s. Both transitions were rough for a couple of weeks, but honestly less difficult than expected. Neither choice turned me into a 10x developer, but neither one has ever caused a problem that I cared about either. Do you spend a lot of time on systems that you don't control? Dvorak discourages other people from helping themselves to my keyboard, which is honestly worth more to me than being able to go the opposite direction.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 11mo ago
  > being able to go the opposite direction I bet you could learn to "switch" if you really cared to. Reminds me of the reverse-steering bicycle video from SmarterEveryDay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0
tmtvl 11mo ago
As an Emacs user it annoys me to no end when I find myself using a system without a Vi variant. Not having Emacs available is fine, I know where to find it if I really need it, not having Dvorak is fine, hunt-and-peck is usually good enough; but not having Vi means I need to do a ton of sedding, catting, heading, and tailing which gets to be a chore after a while (almost as bad as using nano).
- miroljub 11mo ago
  What's so bad about nano that you'd use sed, cat, head, and tail to do minor edits on a text file instead of just using nano?
eviks 11mo ago
> nothing beats the convenience of always having guaranteed access to qwerty, everywhere I go. (less so for keyboard layout since it's harder to fix in other machines) but the ergonomics of your 99% use cases - using your own keyboard/your own editor config with 1% awkwardness when you can't copy a config beats the health-hazardous use 100% of the time. > via well-maintained plugins so those can read your vim config and maintain your better keybinds, right?
lenkite 11mo ago
I don't understand. VIM has a visual mode too if you want it. Just press `v`, do your selection and then operate on the selection. But frankly, the operator-motion is better, esp if you have repetitive editing to do. It is easier to repeat the same or combine the into a macro. Feel less efficient with Helix motions: https://www.reddit.com/r/HelixEditor/comments/1h5qqg7/i_feel_must_less_efficient_with_helix_motions/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HelixEditor/comments/1h5qqg7/i_feel...
grayrest 11mo ago
> I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak As near as I can tell, people generally type at similar speeds regardless of layout. If you're aiming for speed typing [1], I can see it making a difference, but chances are you're not going to see much of a difference. I type on an alpha-thumb layout (Hands Down Vibranium, the R key is under my left thumb) on an ergo keyboard. It's like using a fountain pen versus a cheap ballpoint or a nice mechanical keyboard vs a membrane keyboard. The experience is nicer but it's not a fundamentally different process. Being on a weird setup, I was concerned about "what if my keyboard breaks", "what if I'm on a public computer", etc and the solution is just to not forget qwerty. I use the laptop keyboard every other day or so for something short like a comment and it's fine. What my personal setup does let me do is have my wrists in a neutral position with my arms resting on chair armrests and no active muscle effort. Between the efficient layout and small keyboard I never need to move my hands at all. This means that my wrists are just as well positioned after 12 hours as they are at the start and that's what has been letting my stress injuries recover. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/KeyboardLayouts/comments/1lfu1xt/first_200_wpm_on_a_thumb_alpha_keyboard_layout/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KeyboardLayouts/comments/1lfu1xt/fi...
Archelaos 11mo ago
> of always having guaranteed access to qwerty everywhere I go. You haven't travelled far, obviously.
timeon 11mo ago
Maybe it is not for people that need to switch. For me it is first editor of this kind and I do not need to fight anything.
atiedebee 11mo ago
I used vim for about one year before switching to kakoune. Using vim motions in Intellij or just vim hasn't been a problem for me at all. I don't use very advanced shortcuts (the most complicated motions I ever use are ciw and the likes). Even though they are quite different (ciw is <alt>iwc in kakoune) I adjust to them quite easily. Kakoune has also helped me get better at using vim because there is quite some overlaps that are more discoverable in kakoune (<alt>i summons a clippy that shows all the different objects you can select)
scuff3d 11mo ago
This and to be honest no small amount of sunk cost are keeping me with NeoVim. I spent so much time learning how to get the damn thing to work the way I want I just can't bring myself to leave lol
marcyb5st 11mo ago
You can try evil helix [1], so your muscle memory won't be affected. [1] https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix

scop 11mo ago

That keyboard layout is a great analogy. Maybe I would have tried Helix in my early twenties, but I’m too old for that now (30s lol).

warmwaffles 11mo ago
I was on sublime text for the last 12 years. I made the switch to helix and although I missed some features, it's been a great change. I never could get into the vim bindings, but helix's defaults are great and I don't need to go plugin hunting in order to make the editor functional. There's missing features I really want, but they'll be added eventually. Git blame in line, some scripting support, better find-replace across a project and not just the opened buffers. Just give it a try for a week or two straight. No using your other editors. Cold turkey. You'll be surprised at how quickly you'll relearn. It took me about three weeks using it full time to get decent. The first day or so were brutal.

lordleft 11mo ago

This is what is keeping me from trying Helix in a serious way. I don't want to learn slightly distinct vi-like keybindings and mess up my muscle memory.

dkdcio 11mo ago
same -- I wish Helix would just have a full vi-compatible mode, it would probably be enough to get me to switch the other thing for me is lack of the GitHub Copilot extension. I am far too used to having tab-complete. there's some effort for Helix extensions to handle this but it's not close to on-par last time I checked
- airstrike 11mo ago
  Ask and you shall receive https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix
  - cycomanic 11mo ago
    I've tried evil helix and it is reasonable close to Vim, but still not quite the same (I don't remember but was running into several slight differences, which were causing enough adjustment that I gave up)
- CorrectHorseBat 11mo ago
  But why then switch?
  - dkdcio 11mo ago
    from neovim to helix? I would prefer the configuration simplicity (while my neovim config is fairly stable and straightforward, it can be annoying to update) and better out-of-the-box defaults. I’d also be a lot more personally interested in contributing to the Rust codebase of Helix if I ever did run into bugs or features

thendrill 11mo ago

I have to agree. It is too similar to vim, yet it is not vim.... I dont get what is the value proposition here. I mean I feel helix is just stripped off SpaceVim ????

kelvinjps10 11mo ago
It's more intuitive, and some key binding are using home letters instead of symbols making it easier to reach
evolighting 11mo ago
My favorite one: "ggdG" didn't work no Helix; But more importantly,it reflects the reality that although they bear some resemblance, the design logic of vi and Helix are actually fundamentally different.
- icen 11mo ago
  In helix that's %d (select-buffer, then delete). The selection-then-action design for helix is showing it's difference to vi, which is action-on-movement.
  - tux1968 11mo ago
    But Vim has visual-mode, which is select-then-action too.
    - dugidugout 11mo ago
      There's a mode for that!
    - eviks 11mo ago
      not really, vim's visual mode always extends selection, while in Helix the base mode selects with your base commands so you can act on the selection, but it doesn't extend to the next one. For example, moving by 2 words only selects the 2nd one, not both like in Visual mode. (although in this specific case of selecting everything this difference isn't visible)

lawn 11mo ago

Eh. I've used a couple of different keyboard layouts and different keyboards and I can still use regular keyboards and layouts just fine. It's just a matter of practice, which admittedly might be too much effort for little gain. I still use Neovim and I don't see myself ever using Helix or Kakoune.

noir_lord 11mo ago

It's a classic switching cost problem, to make it worth switching the effort either needs be below a threshold or the outcome has to be much better otherwise people won't switch - i.e. a killer feature/features.

lycopodiopsida 11mo ago

> I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak, but nothing beats the convenience of always having guaranteed access to qwerty, everywhere I go. Colemak/Dvorak is not about speed, but about comfort and avoiding RSI (though I would place the actual layout somewhere far down on the list, a proper ergonomic KB is top priority). Also, in my ~8 years on Colemak lack of access to it was a problem exactly 0 times. I don't type books on other people's computers, and if I would, typing blind on a keyboard I am not used to is anyway a hopeless endeavor.

boterock 11mo ago
And regarding availability, Colemak is now included in Windows 11, which makes it available out of the box in all 3 major OS's. Also, Colemak is an easy way to upgrade comfort in cases where you can't change the keyboard, like a laptop or shared computer.
- DanOpcode 11mo ago
  Awesome to hear! Many organizations are restrictive with what's allowed to be installed on the computer, so this will be awesome. In one project I'm getting upgraded from Windows 10 to 11 any day now. Will be great to be able to use Colemak there as well.
stronglikedan 11mo ago
> avoiding RSI I tried all manner of keyboards over the years, and in my opinion, none of them solve RSI. I'm now back to a standard qwerty for the same reason as OP - they're just immediately available everywhere. What did help my no-longer-existent RSI was simple - I don't rest my wrists any more like I was taught in high school typing class (by an instructor that would whack our hands with a ruler if we were caught resting our wrists). I do have a bit of De Quervain's Tenosynovitis from the mouse, but I'm solving that with one of those hand stretchers that hook to your fingers and provide resistance when opening the hand. 100 reps a day (25x4) and I haven't really felt it in weeks. Turns out that working out the muscles opposite to the ones you think is the key (therapy putty did nothing).

hajile 11mo ago

> I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak The speed is about the same. The big colmak win for me was that my hands/arms didn't ache after long typing sessions. Ergonomics and not getting repetitive motion injuries matter to me more than compatibility (though I can still type in qwerty even if it's slower these days).

BowBun 11mo ago

> I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak, but nothing beats the convenience of always having guaranteed access to qwerty, everywhere I go. Citation needed. Of my 2 friends that have tried, neither have been able to reach their 'standard' typing speed after 1+ years of dvorak. Maybe they didn't try hard enough?

miroljub 11mo ago
> Citation needed. No, not needed. This is not an HN comment posting a subjective opinion, not a scientific work that requires real, or a Wikipedia article that requires any citation.
- BowBun 11mo ago
  It's not an HN comment, not a scientific work, not a Wikipedia article. So what is it? Sorry, had to match your level of pedantery.

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

allknowingfrog 11mo ago

I switched from Qwerty to Dvorak in my 20s, and now from Vim to Helix in my 30s. Both transitions were rough for a couple of weeks, but honestly less difficult than expected. Neither choice turned me into a 10x developer, but neither one has ever caused a problem that I cared about either. Do you spend a lot of time on systems that you don't control? Dvorak discourages other people from helping themselves to my keyboard, which is honestly worth more to me than being able to go the opposite direction.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 11mo ago
> being able to go the opposite direction I bet you could learn to "switch" if you really cared to. Reminds me of the reverse-steering bicycle video from SmarterEveryDay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

tmtvl 11mo ago

As an Emacs user it annoys me to no end when I find myself using a system without a Vi variant. Not having Emacs available is fine, I know where to find it if I really need it, not having Dvorak is fine, hunt-and-peck is usually good enough; but not having Vi means I need to do a ton of sedding, catting, heading, and tailing which gets to be a chore after a while (almost as bad as using nano).

miroljub 11mo ago
What's so bad about nano that you'd use sed, cat, head, and tail to do minor edits on a text file instead of just using nano?

eviks 11mo ago

> nothing beats the convenience of always having guaranteed access to qwerty, everywhere I go. (less so for keyboard layout since it's harder to fix in other machines) but the ergonomics of your 99% use cases - using your own keyboard/your own editor config with 1% awkwardness when you can't copy a config beats the health-hazardous use 100% of the time. > via well-maintained plugins so those can read your vim config and maintain your better keybinds, right?

lenkite 11mo ago

I don't understand. VIM has a visual mode too if you want it. Just press `v`, do your selection and then operate on the selection. But frankly, the operator-motion is better, esp if you have repetitive editing to do. It is easier to repeat the same or combine the into a macro. Feel less efficient with Helix motions: https://www.reddit.com/r/HelixEditor/comments/1h5qqg7/i_feel_must_less_efficient_with_helix_motions/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HelixEditor/comments/1h5qqg7/i_feel...

grayrest 11mo ago

> I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak As near as I can tell, people generally type at similar speeds regardless of layout. If you're aiming for speed typing [1], I can see it making a difference, but chances are you're not going to see much of a difference. I type on an alpha-thumb layout (Hands Down Vibranium, the R key is under my left thumb) on an ergo keyboard. It's like using a fountain pen versus a cheap ballpoint or a nice mechanical keyboard vs a membrane keyboard. The experience is nicer but it's not a fundamentally different process. Being on a weird setup, I was concerned about "what if my keyboard breaks", "what if I'm on a public computer", etc and the solution is just to not forget qwerty. I use the laptop keyboard every other day or so for something short like a comment and it's fine. What my personal setup does let me do is have my wrists in a neutral position with my arms resting on chair armrests and no active muscle effort. Between the efficient layout and small keyboard I never need to move my hands at all. This means that my wrists are just as well positioned after 12 hours as they are at the start and that's what has been letting my stress injuries recover. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/KeyboardLayouts/comments/1lfu1xt/first_200_wpm_on_a_thumb_alpha_keyboard_layout/ https://www.reddit.com/r/KeyboardLayouts/comments/1lfu1xt/fi...

Archelaos 11mo ago

> of always having guaranteed access to qwerty everywhere I go. You haven't travelled far, obviously.

timeon 11mo ago

Maybe it is not for people that need to switch. For me it is first editor of this kind and I do not need to fight anything.

atiedebee 11mo ago

I used vim for about one year before switching to kakoune. Using vim motions in Intellij or just vim hasn't been a problem for me at all. I don't use very advanced shortcuts (the most complicated motions I ever use are ciw and the likes). Even though they are quite different (ciw is <alt>iwc in kakoune) I adjust to them quite easily. Kakoune has also helped me get better at using vim because there is quite some overlaps that are more discoverable in kakoune (<alt>i summons a clippy that shows all the different objects you can select)

scuff3d 11mo ago

This and to be honest no small amount of sunk cost are keeping me with NeoVim. I spent so much time learning how to get the damn thing to work the way I want I just can't bring myself to leave lol

marcyb5st 11mo ago

You can try evil helix [1], so your muscle memory won't be affected. [1] https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix