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> Feel free to complain, but don't forget you can make choices. Of course. I can make a choice. When the choice is between being able to login to secure servic

> Feel free to complain, but don't forget you can make choices. Of course. I can make a choice. When the choice is between being able to login to secure services with my SIM embedded e-signature, use mobile banking and conduct official business and not being able to do any of these things, making choices are easy. Running Linux on desktop is easy mode when compared to phones, and yes, I started using Linux on desktop in 1999 too with SuSE 6.0. Phones are way more interconnected and central to our lives now when compared to a general purpose computer running your $FAVORITE_OS.

tinfoilhatter 1y ago
What about when your smartphone is required to verify your identity so you can work / earn a paycheck? What about when it's required in order for you to engage in commerce? We're headed down a very slippery slope and the destination is a very dystopian reality where those in power can prevent someone from participating in society on a whim. I believe the destination has previously been described as the beast system or New World Order. We are all definitely going to have to make a choice. That much is certain.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  We're already there. Attestation is not in your phone, but in your ID card. European passports and ID cards carry biometric data of your face, so you can be computationally verified. I'm aware of this slippery slope for a very long time, esp. with AI (check my comments if you prefer). On the other hand, I believe that we need to choose our battles wisely. We believe that technology is the cause of these things, it's not. Remember: Necessity is the mother of invention. The governments believe that this is the "necessity", so the technologies are developed and deployed. We need to change the beliefs, not the technology. The same dystopian digital ID allows me to verify my identity to my bank while I'm having my breakfast saving everyone time. That e-sig allows me to have a practical PKI based security in my phone for sensitive things. Nothing prevents these things from turning against me, except the ideas and beliefs of the people managing these things. We need to change minds. Not the technology.
  - Y_Y 1y ago
    > We need to change minds. Not the technology. I totally agree that changing the hivemind's mind is the only way to preserve these freedoms. Is anyone making any progress on this? Beyond the FSF, noyb, and hn lurkers?
  - spookie 1y ago
    I feel better having a physical token like an ID than it being on my phone, however.
    - TeMPOraL 1y ago
      Sure, but the bank feels better about forcing you to interact with their app on a daily basis, because this gives them a direct upsell channel for their financial services. They don't actually want you to us a physical token. Security is only an excuse.
      - spookie 1y ago
        Yup, right on target.
- TeMPOraL 1y ago
  > What about when your smartphone is required to verify your identity so you can work / earn a paycheck? What about when it's required in order for you to engage in commerce? In some cases, it already is. We're already far on the path you described, and there is no choice to make on it, not for individuals. To stop this, we need to somehow make these technologies socially unacceptable. We need to walk back on cybersecurity quite a bit, and it starts with population-wide understanding that there is such thing as too much security, especially when the questions of who is being secured and who is the threat remain conveniently unanswered.
  - jobs_throwaway 1y ago
    Well put. Most SWEs on this very site probably require a smartphone for id verification for work. Acting like that is a personal choice is not useful
  - anjel 1y ago
    The US is not nearly as far down that path as is, for example, China. But two forces are at play here: 1. Near-term concern: F-Droid is getting too popular for Google's comfort and Android revenue ambitions 2. Longer term goal: Control. Much of Chinas's social credit scoring is mediated by their phones. Not an issue yet here in the US but assuredly, if not explicitly on the current's government's list of aspirations. A completely managed device with no freedoms (like f-Droid et al,) is antithetical to a more restricted (managed) device.
    - Animats 1y ago
      > Near-term concern: F-Droid is getting too popular for Google's comfort and Android revenue ambitions That's good to hear. I'm entirely on F-Droid, with no Google account.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
state_less 1y ago
I booted Slackware from a pile of floppies back then. I thought the Germans had a pretty good offering with SuSE at the time. Look I get it, even back then, most folks felt Windows was the obvious choice (and still do) for their jobs and so on. Sometimes you have to make do with with the unappealing choice in front of you. For a little more context, my cracked screen iPhone can still do banking or whatever, but I chose not to pony up $800-$1200 for a new iPhone and bought the cheaper $350 Motorolla. It works for me and I think I'm not entirely alone. There are probably some cracked phones, some handme down phones that folks could use for those situations where you really need to use the closed platform, but otherwise are free to use something more open.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Slackware always brings out the inner teen in me. I feel giddy like in the old days. I need to install and maintain it somewhere some time, just for kicks. I support FOSS wholeheartedly, and believe that it's possible to have a device which is completely Free (not Open but, Free) from hardware design to firmware and software. On the other hand, there are some nasty realities which bring hard questions. For example, radios. Radio firmware is something nasty. Give people freedom and you can't believe what you can do with it (Flipper Zero is revolutionary, but even that's a tongue in cheek device). Muck with your airspace and you create a lot of problems. The problem is not technology, but physics. So, unless you prevent things from happening, you can't keep that airspace fair to everybody. Similar problems are present in pipelines where you need to carry information in a trusted way. In some cases open technology can guarantee this upto a certain point. To cross that point, you need to give your back to hardware. I don't believe there are many hardware security devices with open firmware. I use MacBooks and iPhones mostly because of the hardware they bring in to the table. I got in these ecosystems knowing what I'm buying into, but I have my personal fleet of Linux desktops and servers, and all the things I develop and publish are Free Software. I also use Apple devices because I don't want to manage another server esp. in my pocket (because I also manage lots of servers at work, so I want some piece of mind), yet using these devices doesn't change my mind into not supporting Free Software. At the end, as I commented down there the problem is not the technology itself, but the mindset behind these. We need to change the minds and requirements. The technical changes will follow.
blablabla123 1y ago
When that security model is based around SIM swappable hardware, this sounds at least questionable. Mobile security seems like a contradiction in itself. I would say this is also why Google is so eager to also lock down the last degree of freedom. So the joke is on you when you use it for online banking
- bayindirh 1y ago
  Your comment makes a lot of assumptions, and all of them are wrong.
hyperbolablabla 1y ago
Exactly - if I don't have the Monzo banking app on my phone, I can't do _any_ banking. Thinking about that now... That's not great.
- graemep 1y ago
  I refuse to use a bank that does not have a website. I do have one credit card that requires an app if you want to do thing online - otherwise its paper statements only. I use it a lot less as a result.

tinfoilhatter 1y ago

What about when your smartphone is required to verify your identity so you can work / earn a paycheck? What about when it's required in order for you to engage in commerce? We're headed down a very slippery slope and the destination is a very dystopian reality where those in power can prevent someone from participating in society on a whim. I believe the destination has previously been described as the beast system or New World Order. We are all definitely going to have to make a choice. That much is certain.

bayindirh 1y ago
We're already there. Attestation is not in your phone, but in your ID card. European passports and ID cards carry biometric data of your face, so you can be computationally verified. I'm aware of this slippery slope for a very long time, esp. with AI (check my comments if you prefer). On the other hand, I believe that we need to choose our battles wisely. We believe that technology is the cause of these things, it's not. Remember: Necessity is the mother of invention. The governments believe that this is the "necessity", so the technologies are developed and deployed. We need to change the beliefs, not the technology. The same dystopian digital ID allows me to verify my identity to my bank while I'm having my breakfast saving everyone time. That e-sig allows me to have a practical PKI based security in my phone for sensitive things. Nothing prevents these things from turning against me, except the ideas and beliefs of the people managing these things. We need to change minds. Not the technology.
- Y_Y 1y ago
  > We need to change minds. Not the technology. I totally agree that changing the hivemind's mind is the only way to preserve these freedoms. Is anyone making any progress on this? Beyond the FSF, noyb, and hn lurkers?
- spookie 1y ago
  I feel better having a physical token like an ID than it being on my phone, however.
  - TeMPOraL 1y ago
    Sure, but the bank feels better about forcing you to interact with their app on a daily basis, because this gives them a direct upsell channel for their financial services. They don't actually want you to us a physical token. Security is only an excuse.
    - spookie 1y ago
      Yup, right on target.
TeMPOraL 1y ago
> What about when your smartphone is required to verify your identity so you can work / earn a paycheck? What about when it's required in order for you to engage in commerce? In some cases, it already is. We're already far on the path you described, and there is no choice to make on it, not for individuals. To stop this, we need to somehow make these technologies socially unacceptable. We need to walk back on cybersecurity quite a bit, and it starts with population-wide understanding that there is such thing as too much security, especially when the questions of who is being secured and who is the threat remain conveniently unanswered.
- jobs_throwaway 1y ago
  Well put. Most SWEs on this very site probably require a smartphone for id verification for work. Acting like that is a personal choice is not useful
- anjel 1y ago
  The US is not nearly as far down that path as is, for example, China. But two forces are at play here: 1. Near-term concern: F-Droid is getting too popular for Google's comfort and Android revenue ambitions 2. Longer term goal: Control. Much of Chinas's social credit scoring is mediated by their phones. Not an issue yet here in the US but assuredly, if not explicitly on the current's government's list of aspirations. A completely managed device with no freedoms (like f-Droid et al,) is antithetical to a more restricted (managed) device.
  - Animats 1y ago
    > Near-term concern: F-Droid is getting too popular for Google's comfort and Android revenue ambitions That's good to hear. I'm entirely on F-Droid, with no Google account.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

state_less 1y ago

I booted Slackware from a pile of floppies back then. I thought the Germans had a pretty good offering with SuSE at the time. Look I get it, even back then, most folks felt Windows was the obvious choice (and still do) for their jobs and so on. Sometimes you have to make do with with the unappealing choice in front of you. For a little more context, my cracked screen iPhone can still do banking or whatever, but I chose not to pony up $800-$1200 for a new iPhone and bought the cheaper $350 Motorolla. It works for me and I think I'm not entirely alone. There are probably some cracked phones, some handme down phones that folks could use for those situations where you really need to use the closed platform, but otherwise are free to use something more open.

bayindirh 1y ago
Slackware always brings out the inner teen in me. I feel giddy like in the old days. I need to install and maintain it somewhere some time, just for kicks. I support FOSS wholeheartedly, and believe that it's possible to have a device which is completely Free (not Open but, Free) from hardware design to firmware and software. On the other hand, there are some nasty realities which bring hard questions. For example, radios. Radio firmware is something nasty. Give people freedom and you can't believe what you can do with it (Flipper Zero is revolutionary, but even that's a tongue in cheek device). Muck with your airspace and you create a lot of problems. The problem is not technology, but physics. So, unless you prevent things from happening, you can't keep that airspace fair to everybody. Similar problems are present in pipelines where you need to carry information in a trusted way. In some cases open technology can guarantee this upto a certain point. To cross that point, you need to give your back to hardware. I don't believe there are many hardware security devices with open firmware. I use MacBooks and iPhones mostly because of the hardware they bring in to the table. I got in these ecosystems knowing what I'm buying into, but I have my personal fleet of Linux desktops and servers, and all the things I develop and publish are Free Software. I also use Apple devices because I don't want to manage another server esp. in my pocket (because I also manage lots of servers at work, so I want some piece of mind), yet using these devices doesn't change my mind into not supporting Free Software. At the end, as I commented down there the problem is not the technology itself, but the mindset behind these. We need to change the minds and requirements. The technical changes will follow.

blablabla123 1y ago

When that security model is based around SIM swappable hardware, this sounds at least questionable. Mobile security seems like a contradiction in itself. I would say this is also why Google is so eager to also lock down the last degree of freedom. So the joke is on you when you use it for online banking

bayindirh 1y ago
Your comment makes a lot of assumptions, and all of them are wrong.

hyperbolablabla 1y ago

Exactly - if I don't have the Monzo banking app on my phone, I can't do _any_ banking. Thinking about that now... That's not great.

graemep 1y ago
I refuse to use a bank that does not have a website. I do have one credit card that requires an app if you want to do thing online - otherwise its paper statements only. I use it a lot less as a result.