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> Pretty much everything that's been layered on top ...and that /is/ topic of discussion every time this discussion happens Every agile criticism conversation

> Pretty much everything that's been layered on top ...and that /is/ topic of discussion every time this discussion happens Every agile criticism conversation goes like this A: agile as practiced is bad B: but the manifesto is solid It's predictable as the sun rising

moregrist 1y ago
And usually: C: Therefore you’re doing it wrong. And once an “agile guru” enters the conversation: D: You need my book / seminar / services.
- eru 1y ago
  Is agile the socialism of software development methodologies? (Not for any deeper reason, only that whenever socialism fails, people tell you that 'real socialism' hasn't been tried, yet.)
  - joquarky 1y ago
    It's the same with every *-ism.
    - eru 1y ago
      That's not actually true. To give a silly example: does anyone (seriously) claim that 'true fascism' has never been tried? Or: liberal democracy (I'm sure you can find a synonym that ends in *-ism) has been tried. It's been doing ok-ish. Obviously it has warts and all. But more importantly: approximately no one ever seriously claims that 'real liberal democracy' hasn't been tried. Similar for constitutional monarchy, or 'social market economy', or dictatorships, etc. People can mostly agree that the real deal has been tried.
alexjplant 1y ago
Because it's true. Scrum is like Spaghetti Carbonara in America. The ingredients are simple and there's a tiny bit of technique involved that anybody can figure out after a few tries. For some reason though almost everybody that makes it decides that they know better than the people that invented it and so adulterates it with peas and onions and garlic and cream and cream cheese and Italian seasoning and parsley and chives until it ends up being Olive Garden Alfredo. If they wanted Carbonara then they would have cooked the Carbonara, not the waterfall with a bunch of JIRA workflows and four-hour meetings layered on top. They just did what they would have done anyway while attempting to sound fancy via obfuscation.
- sokoloff 1y ago
  "If it had ham, it would be closer to a British carbonara..." https://www.instagram.com/reel/DK3aeJjyv98/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/reel/DK3aeJjyv98/?hl=en
threetonesun 1y ago
Any principle or practice falls apart when tied to an economy. See also: religion, politics, society at large. I don't foresee that changing in our lifetimes, so make money doing it the wrong way, and do it the right way in your free time.
ownagefool 1y ago
It's not just Agile but the same applies to DevOps. DevOps is a culture. It can also be the specific subset of highly skilled individuals who were part of or an outcome of said cultures cross pollination. Today DevOps most often means fairly unskilled person hitting pipelines with hammer. In the end, the same old people with the same old commercial interests adopted the term in a way that benefited them but changed the meaning of the term because change was not actually something anyone wanted.
cweld510 1y ago
I don’t agree with that though, plenty of places practice agile well. Maybe big corporations don’t practice it well, but startups often do agile correctly and understand the philosophy.

moregrist 1y ago

And usually: C: Therefore you’re doing it wrong. And once an “agile guru” enters the conversation: D: You need my book / seminar / services.

eru 1y ago
Is agile the socialism of software development methodologies? (Not for any deeper reason, only that whenever socialism fails, people tell you that 'real socialism' hasn't been tried, yet.)
- joquarky 1y ago
  It's the same with every *-ism.
  - eru 1y ago
    That's not actually true. To give a silly example: does anyone (seriously) claim that 'true fascism' has never been tried? Or: liberal democracy (I'm sure you can find a synonym that ends in *-ism) has been tried. It's been doing ok-ish. Obviously it has warts and all. But more importantly: approximately no one ever seriously claims that 'real liberal democracy' hasn't been tried. Similar for constitutional monarchy, or 'social market economy', or dictatorships, etc. People can mostly agree that the real deal has been tried.

alexjplant 1y ago

Because it's true. Scrum is like Spaghetti Carbonara in America. The ingredients are simple and there's a tiny bit of technique involved that anybody can figure out after a few tries. For some reason though almost everybody that makes it decides that they know better than the people that invented it and so adulterates it with peas and onions and garlic and cream and cream cheese and Italian seasoning and parsley and chives until it ends up being Olive Garden Alfredo. If they wanted Carbonara then they would have cooked the Carbonara, not the waterfall with a bunch of JIRA workflows and four-hour meetings layered on top. They just did what they would have done anyway while attempting to sound fancy via obfuscation.

sokoloff 1y ago
"If it had ham, it would be closer to a British carbonara..." https://www.instagram.com/reel/DK3aeJjyv98/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/reel/DK3aeJjyv98/?hl=en

threetonesun 1y ago

Any principle or practice falls apart when tied to an economy. See also: religion, politics, society at large. I don't foresee that changing in our lifetimes, so make money doing it the wrong way, and do it the right way in your free time.

ownagefool 1y ago

It's not just Agile but the same applies to DevOps. DevOps is a culture. It can also be the specific subset of highly skilled individuals who were part of or an outcome of said cultures cross pollination. Today DevOps most often means fairly unskilled person hitting pipelines with hammer. In the end, the same old people with the same old commercial interests adopted the term in a way that benefited them but changed the meaning of the term because change was not actually something anyone wanted.

cweld510 1y ago

I don’t agree with that though, plenty of places practice agile well. Maybe big corporations don’t practice it well, but startups often do agile correctly and understand the philosophy.