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> Any device that doesn't have DRM will never support a paid digital marketplace or paid content streaming. None of the attestation stuff actually works for th

> Any device that doesn't have DRM will never support a paid digital marketplace or paid content streaming. None of the attestation stuff actually works for that. For streamed content the pirates only need one person to crack one device and then everything is on The Pirate Bay. Notice that it's all still available in such places despite the DRM and the people still paying for it are still paying for it despite its availability there. And apps are the same. If you put some attestation in your app, the pirates would just disable it in the copy they distribute, because attestation does nothing to prevent copying. What it's nominally supposed to be for is so that a server can verify that the device is approved before providing some service. But that only works if a) the thing the server is providing is individualized rather than generally available, and b) the attacker can't get an approved device. The first is what makes it useless for copy protection. The second is what makes it useless for e.g. a bank app, because the attacker will just steal the user's credentials on a compromised device that never even attempts attestation because it's only connecting to the attacker's servers, and then put the stolen credentials into an approved device in order to transfer the money. The only party to benefit from any of this is the incumbent platform if they can fool useful idiots into using it in order to lock customers into their platform.

kuhsaft 1y ago
> For streamed content the pirates only need one person to crack one device Thus the push for locked devices. > What it's nominally supposed to be for is so that a server can verify that the device is approved before providing some service. Which is why Neflix wont work with a device failing Play Protect. > The first is what makes it useless for copy protection Not if you require a locked device to download the artifact in the first place to prevent copying.
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  I feel like you're not understanding the problem: > Which is why Neflix wont work with a device failing Play Protect. And yet the pirates still have all of their content, because DRM doesn't work. One pirate cracks one locked device and can download their entire catalog with it. That one pirate needs to know something about computer security and side channel attacks etc., but none of the people downloading it do. It can't prevent the first copy from being made because the devices are only secure against amateurs but not professionals, and it can't prevent any of the subsequent copies because the pirates aren't using any DRM to distribute them.
  - kuhsaft 1y ago
    > And yet the pirates still have all of their content, because DRM doesn't work. One pirate cracks one locked device and can download their entire catalog with it. I know and I'm saying what we are seeing is a push to plug all those holes. iOS, Android, macOS SIP, Windows Secure Boot. All root-of-trust systems, so that only operating systems that prevent copying can download it in the first place. Those pirates aren't using locked devices to copy content. They are using devices lacking copy protection.
    - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
      The pirates still have the media which is only distributed to locked devices. Nobody really knows how to secure a device against a professional who has physical access to the device for as long as they want.
      - kuhsaft 1y ago
        Xbox, post-360, has been very successful at doing so.
        AnthonyMouse 1y ago
        Xbox games are cracked all over the place. You're referring to jailbreaks. The incentive to jailbreak an Xbox is pretty low because if you did it, it would be basically a PC and anyone who wants "basically a PC" would just get a PC. I've had this conversation with other people before. It generally goes like this. They say DRM would work if only it was the One True DRM where all the world is their chattel and their killbots have wiped out all the resistance fighters. I ask why it is that even the systems that work the way they want them to are still unable to prevent copying. They ignore the vast majority of these systems that are known to be broken and point to some outlier without considering why it is one. And it's typically something like, the same content is also distributed in a parallel system which is already cracked and then there is little reason to crack both of them, or there is less incentive to crack a system when the content it's used on is unpopular, or there is a statistical variation in how long it takes for someone to get to it and then choosing the longest one is effectively cherry picking or P-hacking. The implication is supposed to be that if only we used that system for everything then nobody would be able to crack it. But if you used that system for everything then that's the system they would have cracked because it's the one you're using for everything. That's how it works. It's not that anybody has impenetrable security, it's that people rob banks because that's where the money is. Except that in this case it's not gold, it's bits, so anyone who gets their hands on a single copy can make unlimited more.

kuhsaft 1y ago

> For streamed content the pirates only need one person to crack one device Thus the push for locked devices. > What it's nominally supposed to be for is so that a server can verify that the device is approved before providing some service. Which is why Neflix wont work with a device failing Play Protect. > The first is what makes it useless for copy protection Not if you require a locked device to download the artifact in the first place to prevent copying.

AnthonyMouse 1y ago
I feel like you're not understanding the problem: > Which is why Neflix wont work with a device failing Play Protect. And yet the pirates still have all of their content, because DRM doesn't work. One pirate cracks one locked device and can download their entire catalog with it. That one pirate needs to know something about computer security and side channel attacks etc., but none of the people downloading it do. It can't prevent the first copy from being made because the devices are only secure against amateurs but not professionals, and it can't prevent any of the subsequent copies because the pirates aren't using any DRM to distribute them.
- kuhsaft 1y ago
  > And yet the pirates still have all of their content, because DRM doesn't work. One pirate cracks one locked device and can download their entire catalog with it. I know and I'm saying what we are seeing is a push to plug all those holes. iOS, Android, macOS SIP, Windows Secure Boot. All root-of-trust systems, so that only operating systems that prevent copying can download it in the first place. Those pirates aren't using locked devices to copy content. They are using devices lacking copy protection.
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    The pirates still have the media which is only distributed to locked devices. Nobody really knows how to secure a device against a professional who has physical access to the device for as long as they want.
    - kuhsaft 1y ago
      Xbox, post-360, has been very successful at doing so.
      - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
        Xbox games are cracked all over the place. You're referring to jailbreaks. The incentive to jailbreak an Xbox is pretty low because if you did it, it would be basically a PC and anyone who wants "basically a PC" would just get a PC. I've had this conversation with other people before. It generally goes like this. They say DRM would work if only it was the One True DRM where all the world is their chattel and their killbots have wiped out all the resistance fighters. I ask why it is that even the systems that work the way they want them to are still unable to prevent copying. They ignore the vast majority of these systems that are known to be broken and point to some outlier without considering why it is one. And it's typically something like, the same content is also distributed in a parallel system which is already cracked and then there is little reason to crack both of them, or there is less incentive to crack a system when the content it's used on is unpopular, or there is a statistical variation in how long it takes for someone to get to it and then choosing the longest one is effectively cherry picking or P-hacking. The implication is supposed to be that if only we used that system for everything then nobody would be able to crack it. But if you used that system for everything then that's the system they would have cracked because it's the one you're using for everything. That's how it works. It's not that anybody has impenetrable security, it's that people rob banks because that's where the money is. Except that in this case it's not gold, it's bits, so anyone who gets their hands on a single copy can make unlimited more.