3 ms·

This isn't television where a bunch of attorneys immediately show up because they are actors paid by the production company. Going to court is an extremely heav

This isn't television where a bunch of attorneys immediately show up because they are actors paid by the production company. Going to court is an extremely heavyweight and expensive process. Retaining a criminal defense attorney will cost you a $10k retainer to start. Most people will talk to the police to try to head off the situation from escalating that way.

BizarroLand 1y ago
$10k is a massive exaggeration. Many lawyers can be retained for $500, and if you can show that affording that is untenable they will work out a payment plan for your court appointed lawyer.
- mindslight 1y ago
  $500 is two hours of time for a very low hourly rate. You might luck into finding an attorney that is chummy with the right policy/prosecutor to clear something like this up that quick, but I doubt it. $10k has been the standard retainer for a few other legal issues I've dealt with lately, and I doubt most criminal defense attorneys are going to want less if they foresee any chance of the case dragging out. > they will work out a payment plan for your court appointed lawyer Have you actually been there and done anything like this? From what I've seen, the reality is much much much different than the marketing.
  - BizarroLand 1y ago
    It's been a minute, but I've retained a lawyer in the past. The $500 was just to have a conversation and to lay out the plan of attack if needed. Fortunately, it didn't go anywhere after that and the whole matter was dropped, but I didn't have to roll in with $10k just to get started.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      $500 makes sense for a few hours conversation. Once they start talking to people on your behalf, writing letters, etc, that same hourly rate applies but its other people running up your clock. As you were discussing a plan of action, did that attorney give you any idea what costs you were looking at if the situation started to require serious work on their part?
      - BizarroLand 1y ago
        It was a simple criminal matter, dismissed for lack of evidence and I was innocent besides. I work with lawyers now and the highest paid lawyer I know charges $1,200/hr. The associates charge $350/hr. $10k is still insane unless you're getting a named partner to run your case or if you're in for a serious crime.
        mindslight 1y ago
        Maybe criminal matters are much less time-intensive than I am used to? $350/hr matches my experience. I just figured attorneys would expect to use at least 20-30 hours on a criminal case, the same way they expect to use at least that much time on straightforward civil matters.
        BizarroLand 1y ago
        Maybe it's a terminology thing. To me, a retainer is just the amount of money you pay upfront to retain the services of the lawyer, and it does not cover the entire anticipated fee of the lawyers' services. If you go through a trial with a personal lawyer for anything more complicated than, say, a DUI, you would be lucky to only spend $10,000 no matter how short the trial is, but either way the balance of the bill would be due either during the course of the trial to cover expenses or after the trial once all matters have settled.
sidewndr46 1y ago
I don't know where you are but a criminal defense attorney does not start at $10,000. Also talking to the police is a great way to wind up in jail for a long time
- mindslight 1y ago
  > Also talking to the police is a great way to wind up in jail for a long time Or it's a way to clear up a situation without incurring a life-altering debt and criminal record. We hear about the horrible stories, but people are generally people. If you're facing serious (felony) charges, actually guilty and they're building a case, don't know how to talk without spilling a bunch of possibly-incriminating details, think the cops have it personally out for you, etc, then of course shut the fuck up and assert the full extent of the process. But for many situations this can actually be terrible advice. I was actually just on the other side of this with a juvenile first time offender (property crime). The kid was obviously guilty, open and shut evidence, and admitted it to the detective. The detective advocated for him (them), encouraging me to settle for a small informal cash restitution payment rather than insisting it go to trial. That kid has now been hopefully scared straight, without having a criminal record hanging over his head. I hope he can keep it that way.
  - Citizen8396 1y ago
    They are not mutually exclusive. You can cooperate with police at a lawyer's recommendation. If someone tries to pressure you from talking to a lawyer, they're doing it to manipulate you to their advantage. In your scenario, first time youth offenders almost always will have diversion as an option. If the situation can be remediated so easily, then the cost would not be too great. It seems far more likely to result in a better (or at least neutral) outcome with a lawyer.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      > someone tries to pressure you from talking to a lawyer add that to the list of when one should pull the ripcord on DIY and find/demand an attorney > It seems far more likely to result in a better (or at least neutral) outcome with a lawyer. So in my case the outcome was a restitution payment of a few hundred dollars. I don't know what the bottom of the market for attorneys looks like, but I would be highly surprised if you could find one to get involved for less than a two hour commitment (let's say $500). So right off the bat, that would have tripled the cost of the outcome. Never mind when the detective now sees mom, despite being ostensibly "poor", has enough money to afford that attorney (and make the detective's job harder!). So he stops telling me that I should be content with a few hundred dollars, and I instead claim a much higher amount of actual damages including the time I had to spend. (Note that my comments on this matter are all modulo assuming the kid is guilty. There was pretty strong evidence left behind the scene, and yes, I am mostly just taking the detective's word for it. Obviously if the kid was innocent and being framed by some other kid, then the downside to not hiring an attorney becomes a bit harder to stomach, despite the same financial incentives remaining)

BizarroLand 1y ago

$10k is a massive exaggeration. Many lawyers can be retained for $500, and if you can show that affording that is untenable they will work out a payment plan for your court appointed lawyer.

mindslight 1y ago
$500 is two hours of time for a very low hourly rate. You might luck into finding an attorney that is chummy with the right policy/prosecutor to clear something like this up that quick, but I doubt it. $10k has been the standard retainer for a few other legal issues I've dealt with lately, and I doubt most criminal defense attorneys are going to want less if they foresee any chance of the case dragging out. > they will work out a payment plan for your court appointed lawyer Have you actually been there and done anything like this? From what I've seen, the reality is much much much different than the marketing.
- BizarroLand 1y ago
  It's been a minute, but I've retained a lawyer in the past. The $500 was just to have a conversation and to lay out the plan of attack if needed. Fortunately, it didn't go anywhere after that and the whole matter was dropped, but I didn't have to roll in with $10k just to get started.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    $500 makes sense for a few hours conversation. Once they start talking to people on your behalf, writing letters, etc, that same hourly rate applies but its other people running up your clock. As you were discussing a plan of action, did that attorney give you any idea what costs you were looking at if the situation started to require serious work on their part?
    - BizarroLand 1y ago
      It was a simple criminal matter, dismissed for lack of evidence and I was innocent besides. I work with lawyers now and the highest paid lawyer I know charges $1,200/hr. The associates charge $350/hr. $10k is still insane unless you're getting a named partner to run your case or if you're in for a serious crime.
      - mindslight 1y ago
        Maybe criminal matters are much less time-intensive than I am used to? $350/hr matches my experience. I just figured attorneys would expect to use at least 20-30 hours on a criminal case, the same way they expect to use at least that much time on straightforward civil matters.
        BizarroLand 1y ago
        Maybe it's a terminology thing. To me, a retainer is just the amount of money you pay upfront to retain the services of the lawyer, and it does not cover the entire anticipated fee of the lawyers' services. If you go through a trial with a personal lawyer for anything more complicated than, say, a DUI, you would be lucky to only spend $10,000 no matter how short the trial is, but either way the balance of the bill would be due either during the course of the trial to cover expenses or after the trial once all matters have settled.

sidewndr46 1y ago

I don't know where you are but a criminal defense attorney does not start at $10,000. Also talking to the police is a great way to wind up in jail for a long time

mindslight 1y ago
> Also talking to the police is a great way to wind up in jail for a long time Or it's a way to clear up a situation without incurring a life-altering debt and criminal record. We hear about the horrible stories, but people are generally people. If you're facing serious (felony) charges, actually guilty and they're building a case, don't know how to talk without spilling a bunch of possibly-incriminating details, think the cops have it personally out for you, etc, then of course shut the fuck up and assert the full extent of the process. But for many situations this can actually be terrible advice. I was actually just on the other side of this with a juvenile first time offender (property crime). The kid was obviously guilty, open and shut evidence, and admitted it to the detective. The detective advocated for him (them), encouraging me to settle for a small informal cash restitution payment rather than insisting it go to trial. That kid has now been hopefully scared straight, without having a criminal record hanging over his head. I hope he can keep it that way.
- Citizen8396 1y ago
  They are not mutually exclusive. You can cooperate with police at a lawyer's recommendation. If someone tries to pressure you from talking to a lawyer, they're doing it to manipulate you to their advantage. In your scenario, first time youth offenders almost always will have diversion as an option. If the situation can be remediated so easily, then the cost would not be too great. It seems far more likely to result in a better (or at least neutral) outcome with a lawyer.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    > someone tries to pressure you from talking to a lawyer add that to the list of when one should pull the ripcord on DIY and find/demand an attorney > It seems far more likely to result in a better (or at least neutral) outcome with a lawyer. So in my case the outcome was a restitution payment of a few hundred dollars. I don't know what the bottom of the market for attorneys looks like, but I would be highly surprised if you could find one to get involved for less than a two hour commitment (let's say $500). So right off the bat, that would have tripled the cost of the outcome. Never mind when the detective now sees mom, despite being ostensibly "poor", has enough money to afford that attorney (and make the detective's job harder!). So he stops telling me that I should be content with a few hundred dollars, and I instead claim a much higher amount of actual damages including the time I had to spend. (Note that my comments on this matter are all modulo assuming the kid is guilty. There was pretty strong evidence left behind the scene, and yes, I am mostly just taking the detective's word for it. Obviously if the kid was innocent and being framed by some other kid, then the downside to not hiring an attorney becomes a bit harder to stomach, despite the same financial incentives remaining)