4 ms·

Can Substrate disrupt ASML using particle acceleration?

23 points by kalap_ur 11mo ago

osnium123 11mo ago
I hope this is not the case but a charismatic, politically connected college dropout in the past promised to revolutionize a multi billion dollar industry and ended up going to jail for fraud (Elizabeth Holmes).
kalap_ur 11mo ago
It claims that they can print 12nm features with their particle accelerator. This looks weird.
czarv20 11mo ago
I don’t have a times subscription but this looks to be Xray lithography using a synchrotron to produce the X-rays? Can anyone confirm?
- LargoLasskhyfv 11mo ago
  https://archive.ph/xKqnk https://archive.ph/xKqnk There is also this from out of China: https://pubs.aip.org/aip/app/article/10/8/086105/3357991/Electrohydrodynamic-excimer-laser-Ultra-compact https://pubs.aip.org/aip/app/article/10/8/086105/3357991/Ele... Via: https://phys.org/news/2025-10-electrohydrodynamics-machine-enable-portable-high.html https://phys.org/news/2025-10-electrohydrodynamics-machine-e... Not to forget https://global.canon/en/technology/nil-2023.html https://global.canon/en/technology/nil-2023.html , https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/business/semiconductor/lithography/nanoimprint-lithography https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/business/semiconductor/lithog... which recently went online in https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/canon-delivers-first-nanoimprint-lithography-tool-to-us-institute-backed-by-intel-samsung-darpa https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/canon-delivers-fi... , https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/canon-delivers-5nm-capable-nano-imprint-lithography-machine/ https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/canon-delivers-5nm-capable-n... , https://global.canon/en/news/2024/20240926.html https://global.canon/en/news/2024/20240926.html , https://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoimprint-lithography https://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoimprint-lithography OTOH: https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/nanoimprint-lithography-stop-saying https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/nanoimprint-lithograph... And whatever https://www.searchforthenext.com/ https://www.searchforthenext.com/ & https://semefab.com https://semefab.com claim for their stuff
  - zengief 11mo ago
    Thanks for the link. What I'm wondering is how this guy aims to succeed where previous X-ray lithography efforts failed. For reference X-ray litho was competing with EUV. What was it that held the approach back? My guess would be that that the industry simply coalesced around EUV and X-rays were abandoned. But that just makes me wonder why the industry coalesced there. Perhaps synchrotons are not cheap / easy? But don't university labs build these all the time?
    - osnium123 11mo ago
      Prof. Hank Smith of MIT spent decades trying to push X-ray lithography but yes, the industry coalesced around DUV and then EUV. https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16801/50503702-MIT.pdf?sequence=2 https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16801/5050370...
    - LargoLasskhyfv 11mo ago
      As far as I understand it real X-Rays are too hard to handle in general, and though more precise because of shorter wavelengths etch too much away from the substrates. EUV is just soft enough, to not do that(as much). That seems to be the main reason all the effort went into EUV of 'just the right wavelength and energy.'
  - dreamcompiler 11mo ago
    That searchforthenext link shows an illustration captioned "Conventional CMOS unipolar NOR gate." It's actually a NAND gate. Seems like a pretty big red flag if they want to revolutionize transistors but they can't even get super basic stuff right.
11thEarlOfMar 11mo ago
We need to see their detailed implementation strategy to understand whether this can ever be viable. If it is, you can be sure that ASML is already working on it.
- ilove196884 11mo ago
  We know it can't be used in a fab because the mask in EUV scanners is in a hydrogen ambient to protect the optics and masks whereas the synchrotron is in a perfect vacuum. Now EUV has tons of problems with stochastics and as the wavelength decreases these errors increase. Second 13.5nm has optics with highest reflectivity which lower or higher wavelengths do not. It was tried by IBM but it failed and many in IBM and AMD's lithography team ended up at ASML.
dreamcompiler 11mo ago
For those who don't know, ASML didn't invent EUV lithography. It was invented in the US, paid for largely by the US government, and licensed to ASML for commercialization. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ASML_Holding&section=5#History https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ASML_Holding&sect...
ycui1986 11mo ago
If anything, the most complicated problem in lithography is not EUV at all. The hardest problem is the overlay mismatch. ASML had spent decades minimizing overlay mismatch. A new player in semiconductor may claim to master EUV, or X-Ray or contact printing, but everyone must solve the overlay mismatch problem. That is no more easier than the EUV part.

23 points by kalap_ur 11mo ago

I hope this is not the case but a charismatic, politically connected college dropout in the past promised to revolutionize a multi billion dollar industry and ended up going to jail for fraud (Elizabeth Holmes).

kalap_ur 11mo ago

It claims that they can print 12nm features with their particle accelerator. This looks weird.

czarv20 11mo ago

I don’t have a times subscription but this looks to be Xray lithography using a synchrotron to produce the X-rays? Can anyone confirm?

LargoLasskhyfv 11mo ago
https://archive.ph/xKqnk https://archive.ph/xKqnk There is also this from out of China: https://pubs.aip.org/aip/app/article/10/8/086105/3357991/Electrohydrodynamic-excimer-laser-Ultra-compact https://pubs.aip.org/aip/app/article/10/8/086105/3357991/Ele... Via: https://phys.org/news/2025-10-electrohydrodynamics-machine-enable-portable-high.html https://phys.org/news/2025-10-electrohydrodynamics-machine-e... Not to forget https://global.canon/en/technology/nil-2023.html https://global.canon/en/technology/nil-2023.html , https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/business/semiconductor/lithography/nanoimprint-lithography https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/business/semiconductor/lithog... which recently went online in https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/canon-delivers-first-nanoimprint-lithography-tool-to-us-institute-backed-by-intel-samsung-darpa https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/canon-delivers-fi... , https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/canon-delivers-5nm-capable-nano-imprint-lithography-machine/ https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/canon-delivers-5nm-capable-n... , https://global.canon/en/news/2024/20240926.html https://global.canon/en/news/2024/20240926.html , https://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoimprint-lithography https://spectrum.ieee.org/nanoimprint-lithography OTOH: https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/nanoimprint-lithography-stop-saying https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/nanoimprint-lithograph... And whatever https://www.searchforthenext.com/ https://www.searchforthenext.com/ & https://semefab.com https://semefab.com claim for their stuff
- zengief 11mo ago
  Thanks for the link. What I'm wondering is how this guy aims to succeed where previous X-ray lithography efforts failed. For reference X-ray litho was competing with EUV. What was it that held the approach back? My guess would be that that the industry simply coalesced around EUV and X-rays were abandoned. But that just makes me wonder why the industry coalesced there. Perhaps synchrotons are not cheap / easy? But don't university labs build these all the time?
  - osnium123 11mo ago
    Prof. Hank Smith of MIT spent decades trying to push X-ray lithography but yes, the industry coalesced around DUV and then EUV. https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16801/50503702-MIT.pdf?sequence=2 https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16801/5050370...
  - LargoLasskhyfv 11mo ago
    As far as I understand it real X-Rays are too hard to handle in general, and though more precise because of shorter wavelengths etch too much away from the substrates. EUV is just soft enough, to not do that(as much). That seems to be the main reason all the effort went into EUV of 'just the right wavelength and energy.'
- dreamcompiler 11mo ago
  That searchforthenext link shows an illustration captioned "Conventional CMOS unipolar NOR gate." It's actually a NAND gate. Seems like a pretty big red flag if they want to revolutionize transistors but they can't even get super basic stuff right.

11thEarlOfMar 11mo ago

We need to see their detailed implementation strategy to understand whether this can ever be viable. If it is, you can be sure that ASML is already working on it.

ilove196884 11mo ago
We know it can't be used in a fab because the mask in EUV scanners is in a hydrogen ambient to protect the optics and masks whereas the synchrotron is in a perfect vacuum. Now EUV has tons of problems with stochastics and as the wavelength decreases these errors increase. Second 13.5nm has optics with highest reflectivity which lower or higher wavelengths do not. It was tried by IBM but it failed and many in IBM and AMD's lithography team ended up at ASML.

dreamcompiler 11mo ago

For those who don't know, ASML didn't invent EUV lithography. It was invented in the US, paid for largely by the US government, and licensed to ASML for commercialization. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ASML_Holding&section=5#History https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ASML_Holding&sect...

ycui1986 11mo ago

If anything, the most complicated problem in lithography is not EUV at all. The hardest problem is the overlay mismatch. ASML had spent decades minimizing overlay mismatch. A new player in semiconductor may claim to master EUV, or X-Ray or contact printing, but everyone must solve the overlay mismatch problem. That is no more easier than the EUV part.