6 ms·
This reminded me of Matt Blaze's work on physical lock security back in 2003. He found a method of deriving the "master key" for a building (one key that opens
by simonw 1y ago
This reminded me of Matt Blaze's work on physical lock security back in 2003. He found a method of deriving the "master key" for a building (one key that opens all locks) from a single example: https://www.mattblaze.org/masterkey.html https://www.mattblaze.org/masterkey.html
When he published about this he was bombarded with messages from locksmiths complaining that they all knew about this and kept it secret for a reason! https://www.mattblaze.org/papers/kiss.html https://www.mattblaze.org/papers/kiss.html
It was a fascinating clash between computer security principles - disclose vulnerabilities - and physical locksmith culture, which was all about trade secrets.
- agumonkey 1y agoEven as a computer nerd, I find computing culture to be often too radical sometimes.
- jama211 1y agoAgreed
- czx111331 1y agoPerhaps the most important difference is that software — even after being purchased and used — remains relatively easy to patch, unlike a physical lock.
- sigmoid10 1y agoTbf that's a new-ish principle. 2003 was Windows XP era and the early days of Metasploit. I.e. Microsoft and all the other companies were still figuring out this internet thing, while most computers were riddled with unpatched vulnerabilities. There was no such thing as zero day back then, because you could use many exploits years later.
- ale42 1y agoTotally true. Also consider that although software can theoretically or technically be patched, sometimes patches just don't exist... the amount of unmaintained but yet useful software is just huge.
- ethbr1 1y agoOh, the bugtraq era, when any grade schooler could download a 0day POC and force remote reboot his classmates' laptops. (I'm told)
- Sharlin 1y agoGrade schoolers didn’t exactly have laptops in the 00s.
- ethbr1 1y agoThanks to the largess of a media company (read: school admin golfed with the right people), we had them issued ~97. A lot of kids learned about cybersecurity and emulator config (and Harvest Moon) because of it, so net win?
- stingraycharles 1y agoBut Windows Update was definitely already a thing back then, so I don’t think this “Microsoft was still figuring out this Internet thing” holds. Software was updated all the time, and it’s much more difficult to do that with locks.
- sigmoid10 1y agoIt was a thing, but it was also a thing to have it disabled or simply not working. XP was famous for its hackability. And web frameworks were also far from what you see today with auto updates. It's hard to describe to people who were not involved how crazy ITsec was back then. It felt like the wild west compared to today. Literally every other DB had a critical unpatched vulnerability. Thankfully Shodan did not exist yet, so the barrier to entry was high for people without a particular skillset (which was also much harder to learn back then). But MSF pushed security awareness pretty hard once people realized how easy it can be if you just collect a bunch of scripts for common exploits in a simple framework that everyone can learn.
- LogicHound 1y ago> But Windows Update was definitely already a thing back then, so I don’t think this “Microsoft was still figuring out this Internet thing” holds. They had update mechanisms sure. But it was very much upto you to run. When XP came out most people used dial-up (at least in the UK), after 2002 ADSL internet started to become ubiquitous and computers were on the internet for longer periods. They had to start baking security into every aspect of the OS. It was one of the reasons Vista came out several years later than planned. They had to pull people from Vista development and move them onto Windows XP SP2. One of the reasons Vista was such a reviled OS is because the UAC controls broke lots of piece of software which ran under XP, 2000 and 98. > Software was updated all the time, and it’s much more difficult to do that with locks. YIt wasn't unusual to run un-patched software that come from a disc for years. You had to manually download patches and run them yourself. A software update / next version could take like 30 minutes or so on 56k dialup to download. If you didn't need to download a patch, you probably didn't.
- chmod775 1y agoIt just takes seconds to swap the core on most locks.
- yubblegum 1y agoIn 'Three Days of Condor', Robert Redford's character locates the hotel room of a professional hitmat (who is after him) by going to a locksmith and asking him "which hotel and room this key belongs to?" and the locksmith asks him "are you in the trade?" and he responds, "No, but I read a lot".
- bean469 1y agoWatched it a few months ago, such a great and under-rated film! RIP Robert Redford
- yubblegum 1y agoIt's a serious hacker film, actually. Redford is the ultimate hacker in that film: social engineering, picking locks, scrambling MaBell's circuits, and taking out the bad guys in the CIA. [699BB20FD159089A03DD8935575805B1168A8E63 7.4G 1080 blu]
- ac29 1y agoWhile I'm sure some people appreciate your link to pirated content, it seems inappropriate for HN.
- TeMPOraL 1y agoThat's not a link, it merely allows to confirm a specific file is the one you're looking for :).
- yubblegum 1y agoThat is protected speech. :)
- myvoiceismypass 1y agoNo more hashing allowed? That will make things rather difficult.
- ghaff 1y ago
- HexPhantom 1y agoIn the long run, transparency always wins
- jama211 1y agoBut in the short run it could cause enormous damage if you are irresponsible in your methods.
- smcin 1y agoThere's a reason for the different cultures and information asymmetry: in most countries you need a criminal background check to be a locksmith. But not to operate a keyboard.
- DrewADesign 1y agoRight. I’m in a structured trade right now and learning about _~hF.8f@,8zKub&&@(4’v but we’re not supposed to talk about it. At least they let us use the company computers for personal net stuff.
- mike50 1y agoThat only applies to access to modern electronic tools and digital codebooks requiring accounts. Nothing prevented people in the past from buying the physical books used.
- trollbridge 1y agoLong ago I used to maintain a door lock system. I was responsible for designing a new system to encode the room keys and it became obvious as I worked with the internals that it had a vulnerability that would allow anyone to open any lock from this vendor with the right tool. When I quietly mentioned this, the response was that everyone knows this but we don’t talk about it. When Mahmoud al-Mabhouh was assassinated with no signs of forced entry on his hotel room, let’s just say it wasn’t surprising. And no, I don’t think these security flaws are some conspiracy or by design - it’s simply the difficulty of updating firmware on 10 year old boards with a 20 year old design with millions of them out in the field. And they cost around $750 a piece to replace and that was back in 2010.
- polynomial 1y agoSecuring the room's internal physical latch after the assassination was a nice touch.
- SoftTalker 1y ago"Who are you and how did you get in here?" "I'm a locksmith, and I'm a locksmith."
- giovani 1y agoPolice Squad!
- vdfs 1y ago"Although a few people have confused my reporting of the vulnerability with causing the vulnerability itself, I can take comfort in a story that Richard Feynman famously told about his days on the Manhattan project. Some simple vulnerabilities (and user interface problems) made it easy to open most of the safes in use at Los Alamos. He eventually demonstrated the problem to the Army officials in charge. Horrified, they promised to do something about it. The response? A memo ordering the staff to keep Feynman away from their safes."
- jama211 1y agoSecurity through obscurity in a way…
- jmpman 1y agoWhen my first house was under construction in 2001, I created my own key from the builder’s key. When I finally moved in, my key would then disable the builder’s key. Curious how this work, I disassembled my lock and found that there were (iirc) 8 keys which would open all my neighbors houses, even after they had moved in and had disabled the builder’s key. Of course I rekeyed my house to prevent that vulnerability, but in theory it remains on all my neighbors. I also didn’t disclose the vulnerability.
- shaftway 1y agoI don't know about builder's keys from that era, but modern builder's keys aren't vulnerable to this problem. The builder's key uses a deeper cut on one or more pins, but the owner's key can and should be pretty unique. The only real requirement is that there be at least one cut to a high enough number to allow for a builder's key. There's a good video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUCW4OnE6Mc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUCW4OnE6Mc Maybe they used a master key system instead.
- jmpman 1y agoUm, that’s the exact system I was able to defeat. Do a bit more analysis. You’ll figure it out.