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> Supposing that the advice it provides does more good than harm, why? Because a human, esp. a confused and depressive human being is a complex thing. Much mor

> Supposing that the advice it provides does more good than harm, why? Because a human, esp. a confused and depressive human being is a complex thing. Much more complex than a stable, healthy human. Words encouraging a healthy person can break a depressed person further. Statistically positive words can deepen wounds, and push people more to the edge. Dark corners of human nature is twisted, hard to navigate and full of distortions. Simple words don't and can't help. Humans are not machines, brains are not mathematical formulae. We're not deterministic. We need to leave this fantasy behind.

wongarsu 1y ago
You could make the same arguments to say that humans should never talk to suicidal people. And that really sounds counterproductive Also it's side-stepping the question, isn't it? "Supposing that the advice it provides does more good than harm" already supposes that LLMs navigate this somehow. Maybe because they are so great, maybe by accident, maybe because just having someone nonjudgmental to talk to has a net-positive effect. The question posed is really "if LLMs lead some people to suicide but saved a greater number of people from suicide, and we verify this hypothesis with studies, would there still be an argument against LLMs talking to suicidal people"
- cmsj 1y ago
  That sounds like a pretty risky and irresponsible sort of study to conduct. It would also likely be extremely complicate to actually get a reliable result, given that people with suicidal ideations are not monolithic. You'd need to do a significant amount of human counselling with each study participant to be able to classify and control all of the variations - at which point you would be verging on professional negligence for not then actually treating them in those counselling sessions.
imiric 1y ago
I agree with your concerns, but I think you're overestimating the value of a human intervening in these scenarios. A human can also say the wrong things to push someone in a certain direction. A psychologist, or anyone else for that matter, can't stop someone from committing suicide if they've already made up their mind about it. They're educated on human psychology, but they're not miracle workers. The best they can do is raise a flag if they suspect self-harm, but then again, so could a machine. As you say, humans are complex. But I agree with GP: whether the words are generated by a machine or coming from a human, there is no way to blame the source for any specific outcome. There are probably many other cases where the machine has helped someone with personal issues, yet we'll never hear about it. I'm not saying we should rely on these tools as if we would on a human, but the technology can be used for good or bad. If anything, I would place blame on the person who decides to blindly follow anything the machine generates in the first place. AI companies are partly responsible for promoting these tools as something more than statistical models, but ultimately the decision to treat them as reliable sources of information is on the user. I would say that as long as the person has an understanding of what these tools are, interacting with them can be healthy and helpful.
- exasperaited 1y ago
  > A human can also say the wrong things to push someone in a certain direction. A psychologist, or anyone else for that matter, can't stop someone from committing suicide if they've already made up their mind about it. They're educated on human psychology, but they're not miracle workers. The best they can do is raise a flag if they suspect self-harm, but then again, so could a machine. ChatGPT essentially encouraged a kid not to take a cry-for-help step that might have saved their lives. This is not a question of a bad psychologist; it's a question of a sociopathic one that may randomly encourage harm.
  - imiric 1y ago
    But that's not the issue. The issue is that a kid is talking to a machine without supervision in the first place, and presumably taking advice from it. The main questions are: where are the guardians of this child? What is the family situation and living environment? A child thinking about suicide is clearly a sign that there are far greater problems in their life than taking advice from a machine. Let's address those first instead of demonizing technology. To be clear: I'm not removing blame from any AI company. They're complicit in the ways they market these tools and how they make them accessible. But before we vilify them for being responsible for deaths, we should consider that there are deeper societal problems that should be addressed first.
    - lan321 1y ago
      > A child thinking about suicide is clearly a sign that there are far greater problems in their life TBH kids tend to be edgy for a bit when puberty hits. The emo generation had a ton of girls cutting themselves for attention for example.
      - hirvi74 1y ago
        I highly doubt a lot of it is/was for attention.
        1y ago

wongarsu 1y ago

You could make the same arguments to say that humans should never talk to suicidal people. And that really sounds counterproductive Also it's side-stepping the question, isn't it? "Supposing that the advice it provides does more good than harm" already supposes that LLMs navigate this somehow. Maybe because they are so great, maybe by accident, maybe because just having someone nonjudgmental to talk to has a net-positive effect. The question posed is really "if LLMs lead some people to suicide but saved a greater number of people from suicide, and we verify this hypothesis with studies, would there still be an argument against LLMs talking to suicidal people"

cmsj 1y ago
That sounds like a pretty risky and irresponsible sort of study to conduct. It would also likely be extremely complicate to actually get a reliable result, given that people with suicidal ideations are not monolithic. You'd need to do a significant amount of human counselling with each study participant to be able to classify and control all of the variations - at which point you would be verging on professional negligence for not then actually treating them in those counselling sessions.

imiric 1y ago

I agree with your concerns, but I think you're overestimating the value of a human intervening in these scenarios. A human can also say the wrong things to push someone in a certain direction. A psychologist, or anyone else for that matter, can't stop someone from committing suicide if they've already made up their mind about it. They're educated on human psychology, but they're not miracle workers. The best they can do is raise a flag if they suspect self-harm, but then again, so could a machine. As you say, humans are complex. But I agree with GP: whether the words are generated by a machine or coming from a human, there is no way to blame the source for any specific outcome. There are probably many other cases where the machine has helped someone with personal issues, yet we'll never hear about it. I'm not saying we should rely on these tools as if we would on a human, but the technology can be used for good or bad. If anything, I would place blame on the person who decides to blindly follow anything the machine generates in the first place. AI companies are partly responsible for promoting these tools as something more than statistical models, but ultimately the decision to treat them as reliable sources of information is on the user. I would say that as long as the person has an understanding of what these tools are, interacting with them can be healthy and helpful.

exasperaited 1y ago
> A human can also say the wrong things to push someone in a certain direction. A psychologist, or anyone else for that matter, can't stop someone from committing suicide if they've already made up their mind about it. They're educated on human psychology, but they're not miracle workers. The best they can do is raise a flag if they suspect self-harm, but then again, so could a machine. ChatGPT essentially encouraged a kid not to take a cry-for-help step that might have saved their lives. This is not a question of a bad psychologist; it's a question of a sociopathic one that may randomly encourage harm.
- imiric 1y ago
  But that's not the issue. The issue is that a kid is talking to a machine without supervision in the first place, and presumably taking advice from it. The main questions are: where are the guardians of this child? What is the family situation and living environment? A child thinking about suicide is clearly a sign that there are far greater problems in their life than taking advice from a machine. Let's address those first instead of demonizing technology. To be clear: I'm not removing blame from any AI company. They're complicit in the ways they market these tools and how they make them accessible. But before we vilify them for being responsible for deaths, we should consider that there are deeper societal problems that should be addressed first.
  - lan321 1y ago
    > A child thinking about suicide is clearly a sign that there are far greater problems in their life TBH kids tend to be edgy for a bit when puberty hits. The emo generation had a ton of girls cutting themselves for attention for example.
    - hirvi74 1y ago
      I highly doubt a lot of it is/was for attention.
      - 1y ago