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This is a good point. A few days ago I heard about a man who attempted suicide. It's not even an extreme case of disease or anything like that. It's just that

This is a good point. A few days ago I heard about a man who attempted suicide. It's not even an extreme case of disease or anything like that. It's just that he is over 70 (around 72, I think), with his wife in the process of divorcing him, and no children. Even though I am lucky to be a happy person that enjoys life, I find it difficult to argue that he shouldn't suicide. At that age he's going to see his health declining, it's not going to get better in that respect. He is losing his wife who was probably what gave his life meaning. It's too late for most people to meet someone new. Is life really going to give him more joy than suffering? Very unlikely. I suppose he should still hang on if he loves his wife because his suicide would be a trauma for her, but if the divorce is bitter and he doesn't care... honestly I don't know if I could sincerely argue for him not to do it.

buellerbueller 1y ago
Read a book? See some art? Travel? Walk in nature? How can you miss such easily available sources of joy that have undergirded humanity for millennia?
- anonymous908213 1y ago
  The question is not whether joy can be experienced, but whether the ratio of joy to suffering is enough to justify a desire to continue to put up with the suffering. Suppose a divorced 70-year-old is nearly blind and his heart is failing. He has no retirement fund. To survive, he does physical labour that his body can't keep up with for a couple of hours per day, and then sleeps for the rest of the day, worn down and exhausted. Given how little he is capable of working per day, he must work 7 days per week to make ends meet. He has no support network. He does not have the energy to spend on hobbies like reading, let alone physical activity like walking, and forget about travel. I am describing someone I knew myself. He did not commit suicide, but he was certainly waiting for death to come to him. I don't think anything about his situation was rare. Undoubtedly, he was one of many millions who have experienced something similar.
  - buellerbueller 1y ago
    This is vastly different than the situation posted by the parent comment to which I responded.
    - anonymous908213 1y ago
      The question they posited was "Is life really going to give him more joy than suffering?" not "Will he be able to find any joy at all"? They noted how things like declining health can plague the elderly, so I thought I'd relate a real-world case illustrating exactly how failing health and other difficulties can manifest in a way that the joy does not outweigh the suffering. The case in the parent comment didn't provide so much details, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can default to an assumption that the man could in fact find more joy than suffering.
      - buellerbueller 1y ago
        >The case in the parent comment didn't provide so much details, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can default to an assumption that the man could in fact find more joy than suffering. I should just assume things that aren't there, rather than expect a commenter to provide a substantive argument? OK.

buellerbueller 1y ago

Read a book? See some art? Travel? Walk in nature? How can you miss such easily available sources of joy that have undergirded humanity for millennia?

anonymous908213 1y ago
The question is not whether joy can be experienced, but whether the ratio of joy to suffering is enough to justify a desire to continue to put up with the suffering. Suppose a divorced 70-year-old is nearly blind and his heart is failing. He has no retirement fund. To survive, he does physical labour that his body can't keep up with for a couple of hours per day, and then sleeps for the rest of the day, worn down and exhausted. Given how little he is capable of working per day, he must work 7 days per week to make ends meet. He has no support network. He does not have the energy to spend on hobbies like reading, let alone physical activity like walking, and forget about travel. I am describing someone I knew myself. He did not commit suicide, but he was certainly waiting for death to come to him. I don't think anything about his situation was rare. Undoubtedly, he was one of many millions who have experienced something similar.
- buellerbueller 1y ago
  This is vastly different than the situation posted by the parent comment to which I responded.
  - anonymous908213 1y ago
    The question they posited was "Is life really going to give him more joy than suffering?" not "Will he be able to find any joy at all"? They noted how things like declining health can plague the elderly, so I thought I'd relate a real-world case illustrating exactly how failing health and other difficulties can manifest in a way that the joy does not outweigh the suffering. The case in the parent comment didn't provide so much details, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can default to an assumption that the man could in fact find more joy than suffering.
    - buellerbueller 1y ago
      >The case in the parent comment didn't provide so much details, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can default to an assumption that the man could in fact find more joy than suffering. I should just assume things that aren't there, rather than expect a commenter to provide a substantive argument? OK.