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> but can't you at least see how weird it is that 'Women in STEM' is very accepted but a 'Men in STEM' program would never fly? I can see how it might seem wei

> but can't you at least see how weird it is that 'Women in STEM' is very accepted but a 'Men in STEM' program would never fly? I can see how it might seem weird to an alien who knew what men and women were, but had no context for the existing state and history of society. I can't see how it would seem weird to anyone else, however.

MoltenMan 1y ago
Maybe I wasn't clear in my previous comment about what exactly rubs me the wrong way, so here's an analogy: imagine you went to school and the the teacher lined everyone up by gender and handed out a cookie to everyone. And then she handed out two extra cookies to all of the girls! You would be annoyed! Does it matter that back at home guys normally get 4 extra cookies every day? No, because as a guy, you don't see or know this! (In this world brothers don't have sisters and vice versa). And even if you do technically know this because you've heard about it, you don't really viscerally understand it because it's not really your lived in experience. So what is the solution? I can't say I know. But I do know that these things very much breed discontentment and it is at the very least important to recognize why.
- jkelleyrtp 1y ago
  I think a hallmark of 2025 is a resounding lack of empathy and compassion from people. Maybe's it's smartphones, social media, or some sort of existential doomerism. To reframe your scenario: imagine you went to a school and some of your classmates came from poor families and couldn't afford clothes, food, or a laptop etc. To help those students, the teacher used class funds to buy them new shoes and get them a nice laptop to get their work done. Do you still think it's unfair that you don't get new shoes, laptop, or cookies? The solution to your original question is to understand why the teacher is giving girls 4 cookies and then just be happy that more people get a fair shot at life.
  - MoltenMan 1y ago
    I feel like you're glossing over my main point, which is that this stuff 100% does breed resentment for the average person, which is how we end up with people like Trump (obviously there are many more factors to consider but this is definitely one of them). The difference between your scenario is just how visible it is; I have never ever had somebody go up to me and say 'This opportunity is being given to you because you're a white male'! If anything, it's the opposite! Did you know I was not eligible _to apply_ for a single scholarship for college a few years back, solely based on my race and gender? It was pretty demoralizing! Again, I'm not saying that I _haven't_ benefitted from being a white male in some indescribable unknown way; but unlike in your scenario, I cannot _see_ this. Think about the average person, who goes their whole life seeing others being handed stuff specifically because of their race and gender and when they complain about it they simply get told 'Do you have no empathy? Your life is much better off than theirs!' Again, who knows what the right solution is. But I don't think that it's the status quo.
    - wredcoll 1y ago
      > I feel like you're glossing over my main point, which is that this stuff 100% does breed resentment for the average person, which is how we end up with people like Trump (obviously there are many more factors to consider but this is definitely one of them). I mean, having to cater to the feelings of overly sensitive men is how most of these problems started in the first place.
      - MoltenMan 1y ago
        Ack! There is nothing 'overly sensitive' about being annoyed when you see somebody else get an opportunity because of the color of their skin or gender. It's human nature! In fact I suspect the average person in favor of DEI and / or identity politics would still suffer a decent amount of cognitive dissonance if they were passed up because of something like this. Again, it's just human nature! Please try to imagine advocating for women's rights 100 years ago and hearing somebody say something like 'overly sensitive women want to vote! Psh!' If you want to argue for DEI please try to present good faith arguments. Personally, I don't really get butthurt about things, so this isn't a problem for me (although I do think it's a problem in general as it is obviously going to anger people). I do think one of the main problems with DEI is that it attempts to address the symptoms instead of the root cause of the problem. I.e. trying to get girls into stem / coding in highschool or college instead of figuring out why they're less interested in it from a much younger age (and if that's even a problem; classic nature vs nurture problem).
- com2kid 1y ago
  Imagine the teacher lines up all the kids, gives them cookies, notices all the kids are boys, so the teacher puts up a sign outside the girls restroom advertising free cookies for anyone who attends math class. Now the boys have cookies and the girls have cookies. Except the cookies are not actually cookies, they just represent what you'll learn by attending the class. That is out reach. I don't see jocks complaining about fitness outreach programs to geeks. That'd be absurd. But guys famously will complain about: 1. Women reading science fiction 2. Women watching science fiction on TV. 3. Women playing d&d 4. Women playing online games 5. Women writing code. To be fair, many women are judgemental about male nurses or even male teachers. That type of idiocy has to stop both ways. Let people do what they want to do.
  - nomdep 1y ago
    > But guys famously will complain about: > 1. Women reading science fiction > 2. Women watching science fiction on TV. > 3. Women playing d&d > 4. Women playing online games > 5. Women writing code. In your head? The first two are specially absurd. How would anyone know what women watch or read in their houses?
    - com2kid 1y ago
      As soon as women try to participate in fandom or attend conventions, they are derided as not being "real fans". This has been documented as a problem with geek culture for well over 50+ years.
- kelnos 1y ago
  If boys always get 4 cookies at home, and girls get none, and then we go to school and boys get 1 more cookie, and girls get 3 cookies, I'd think it was pretty weird that boys get 5 cookies and girls only get 3. > No, because as a guy, you don't see or know this! (In this world brothers don't have sisters and vice versa). In our world, men do know that women face barriers to entering STEM education and STEM careers that men do not face. Many men seem to ignore that fact, though, or pretend it's not true, and I will continue to roll my eyes at their annoyance about "Women in STEM" programs. What a bizarre analogy...
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  I noticed that you have worked very hard in your strained analogy to setup conditions which validate my original statement: “I can see how it might seem weird to an alien who knew what men and women were, but had no context for the existing state and history of society.”
klipt 1y ago
If you include biological and medical sciences in STEM, STEM graduates have been majority female for decades. Where is the DEI for men in the female dominated STEM subjects?
- dllthomas 1y ago
  > Where is the DEI for men in the female dominated STEM subjects? Is that rhetorical? Have you looked, or just assumed their absence? My cursory search seems to indicate that there are some, although I don't have bandwidth to investigate in any depth and I'm not sure just what criteria you'd want to use for qualification.
- acdha 1y ago
  Where is your data showing those programs don’t exist? For example, conservatives like to talk about the plight of male nurses but even a cursory search shows that there are exactly the kind of programs you’d expect to find.
  - klipt 1y ago
    What's the equivalent of "Girls Who Code" - "Boys Who Nurse"? A club teaching First Aid to boys only? Does it exist at the same scale that Girls Who Code does?
    - punchfunk4lyte 1y ago
      You've never heard of programs to encourage men to be nurses or teachers? I certainly have. Here's what I found after a quick search. If you're interested I'm sure you could research and find more information. https://www.arizonacollege.edu/blog/men-wanted-new-efforts-to-attract-male-nurses/ https://www.arizonacollege.edu/blog/men-wanted-new-efforts-t... > Only 12% of the nurses providing patient care at hospitals and health clinics today are men. Although the percentage of nurses has increased — men made up just 2.7% of nurses in 1970 — nursing is still considered a “pink collar” profession, a female-dominated field. https://www.belmont.edu/stories/articles/2025/men-in-education.html https://www.belmont.edu/stories/articles/2025/men-in-educati... > A critical shortage of male teachers continues to affect K-12 education across America, with men making up just 23% of elementary and secondary school teachers today, down from 30% in 1987, according to the National Center for Education Statistics. Belmont University's College of Education is addressing this gender gap through intentional recruitment, mentorship and innovative program design.

MoltenMan 1y ago

Maybe I wasn't clear in my previous comment about what exactly rubs me the wrong way, so here's an analogy: imagine you went to school and the the teacher lined everyone up by gender and handed out a cookie to everyone. And then she handed out two extra cookies to all of the girls! You would be annoyed! Does it matter that back at home guys normally get 4 extra cookies every day? No, because as a guy, you don't see or know this! (In this world brothers don't have sisters and vice versa). And even if you do technically know this because you've heard about it, you don't really viscerally understand it because it's not really your lived in experience. So what is the solution? I can't say I know. But I do know that these things very much breed discontentment and it is at the very least important to recognize why.

jkelleyrtp 1y ago
I think a hallmark of 2025 is a resounding lack of empathy and compassion from people. Maybe's it's smartphones, social media, or some sort of existential doomerism. To reframe your scenario: imagine you went to a school and some of your classmates came from poor families and couldn't afford clothes, food, or a laptop etc. To help those students, the teacher used class funds to buy them new shoes and get them a nice laptop to get their work done. Do you still think it's unfair that you don't get new shoes, laptop, or cookies? The solution to your original question is to understand why the teacher is giving girls 4 cookies and then just be happy that more people get a fair shot at life.
- MoltenMan 1y ago
  I feel like you're glossing over my main point, which is that this stuff 100% does breed resentment for the average person, which is how we end up with people like Trump (obviously there are many more factors to consider but this is definitely one of them). The difference between your scenario is just how visible it is; I have never ever had somebody go up to me and say 'This opportunity is being given to you because you're a white male'! If anything, it's the opposite! Did you know I was not eligible _to apply_ for a single scholarship for college a few years back, solely based on my race and gender? It was pretty demoralizing! Again, I'm not saying that I _haven't_ benefitted from being a white male in some indescribable unknown way; but unlike in your scenario, I cannot _see_ this. Think about the average person, who goes their whole life seeing others being handed stuff specifically because of their race and gender and when they complain about it they simply get told 'Do you have no empathy? Your life is much better off than theirs!' Again, who knows what the right solution is. But I don't think that it's the status quo.
  - wredcoll 1y ago
    > I feel like you're glossing over my main point, which is that this stuff 100% does breed resentment for the average person, which is how we end up with people like Trump (obviously there are many more factors to consider but this is definitely one of them). I mean, having to cater to the feelings of overly sensitive men is how most of these problems started in the first place.
    - MoltenMan 1y ago
      Ack! There is nothing 'overly sensitive' about being annoyed when you see somebody else get an opportunity because of the color of their skin or gender. It's human nature! In fact I suspect the average person in favor of DEI and / or identity politics would still suffer a decent amount of cognitive dissonance if they were passed up because of something like this. Again, it's just human nature! Please try to imagine advocating for women's rights 100 years ago and hearing somebody say something like 'overly sensitive women want to vote! Psh!' If you want to argue for DEI please try to present good faith arguments. Personally, I don't really get butthurt about things, so this isn't a problem for me (although I do think it's a problem in general as it is obviously going to anger people). I do think one of the main problems with DEI is that it attempts to address the symptoms instead of the root cause of the problem. I.e. trying to get girls into stem / coding in highschool or college instead of figuring out why they're less interested in it from a much younger age (and if that's even a problem; classic nature vs nurture problem).
com2kid 1y ago
Imagine the teacher lines up all the kids, gives them cookies, notices all the kids are boys, so the teacher puts up a sign outside the girls restroom advertising free cookies for anyone who attends math class. Now the boys have cookies and the girls have cookies. Except the cookies are not actually cookies, they just represent what you'll learn by attending the class. That is out reach. I don't see jocks complaining about fitness outreach programs to geeks. That'd be absurd. But guys famously will complain about: 1. Women reading science fiction 2. Women watching science fiction on TV. 3. Women playing d&d 4. Women playing online games 5. Women writing code. To be fair, many women are judgemental about male nurses or even male teachers. That type of idiocy has to stop both ways. Let people do what they want to do.
- nomdep 1y ago
  > But guys famously will complain about: > 1. Women reading science fiction > 2. Women watching science fiction on TV. > 3. Women playing d&d > 4. Women playing online games > 5. Women writing code. In your head? The first two are specially absurd. How would anyone know what women watch or read in their houses?
  - com2kid 1y ago
    As soon as women try to participate in fandom or attend conventions, they are derided as not being "real fans". This has been documented as a problem with geek culture for well over 50+ years.
kelnos 1y ago
If boys always get 4 cookies at home, and girls get none, and then we go to school and boys get 1 more cookie, and girls get 3 cookies, I'd think it was pretty weird that boys get 5 cookies and girls only get 3. > No, because as a guy, you don't see or know this! (In this world brothers don't have sisters and vice versa). In our world, men do know that women face barriers to entering STEM education and STEM careers that men do not face. Many men seem to ignore that fact, though, or pretend it's not true, and I will continue to roll my eyes at their annoyance about "Women in STEM" programs. What a bizarre analogy...
dragonwriter 1y ago
I noticed that you have worked very hard in your strained analogy to setup conditions which validate my original statement: “I can see how it might seem weird to an alien who knew what men and women were, but had no context for the existing state and history of society.”

klipt 1y ago

If you include biological and medical sciences in STEM, STEM graduates have been majority female for decades. Where is the DEI for men in the female dominated STEM subjects?

dllthomas 1y ago
> Where is the DEI for men in the female dominated STEM subjects? Is that rhetorical? Have you looked, or just assumed their absence? My cursory search seems to indicate that there are some, although I don't have bandwidth to investigate in any depth and I'm not sure just what criteria you'd want to use for qualification.
acdha 1y ago
Where is your data showing those programs don’t exist? For example, conservatives like to talk about the plight of male nurses but even a cursory search shows that there are exactly the kind of programs you’d expect to find.
- klipt 1y ago
  What's the equivalent of "Girls Who Code" - "Boys Who Nurse"? A club teaching First Aid to boys only? Does it exist at the same scale that Girls Who Code does?
  - punchfunk4lyte 1y ago
    You've never heard of programs to encourage men to be nurses or teachers? I certainly have. Here's what I found after a quick search. If you're interested I'm sure you could research and find more information. https://www.arizonacollege.edu/blog/men-wanted-new-efforts-to-attract-male-nurses/ https://www.arizonacollege.edu/blog/men-wanted-new-efforts-t... > Only 12% of the nurses providing patient care at hospitals and health clinics today are men. Although the percentage of nurses has increased — men made up just 2.7% of nurses in 1970 — nursing is still considered a “pink collar” profession, a female-dominated field. https://www.belmont.edu/stories/articles/2025/men-in-education.html https://www.belmont.edu/stories/articles/2025/men-in-educati... > A critical shortage of male teachers continues to affect K-12 education across America, with men making up just 23% of elementary and secondary school teachers today, down from 30% in 1987, according to the National Center for Education Statistics. Belmont University's College of Education is addressing this gender gap through intentional recruitment, mentorship and innovative program design.