9 ms·

If you are far right, I have to keep secrets from you. For safety. And no, someone actively wanting to limit my freedom and safety because their ideology is th

by watwut 1y ago

If you are far right, I have to keep secrets from you. For safety. And no, someone actively wanting to limit my freedom and safety because their ideology is that women must be limited cant be trusted. They cant be trusted in calling me on my shit, because what they perceive as shit is my self interest and my core values.

squigz 1y ago
There's a vast difference between "friends who challenge your views in constructive ways" and "people who make you feel unsafe" I feel like GP was probably not referring to the latter.
lynx97 1y ago
Same for "far left", those can't be trusted either. However, what strikes me as interesting: Do you actually destinguish between right and far right? Because I have a feeling, many people don't. Why do I think that? I recently read on Planet Debian: "Conservatives tend to be criminals". That sentences struck me as the core of the problem. People seem to fail to see the difference between a person with conservative values, and outright "Nazis". There is a clear difference, but some politically active people seem to fail to see that.
- jfengel 1y ago
  Just at the moment: a lot of people who consider themselves merely "right" voted for a candidate who is undeniably "far right". So for the moment I'm not drawing much distinction between "conservative values" and "outright Nazis". That was not always true and I hope it will not remain true. But speaking at this specific time in history, this fact represents a genuine threat to life and liberty.
  - lynx97 1y ago
    From my POV, you are pissed that your people lost, and can't get over it. Remember that democracy is a pendulum. Swinging from side to side is a necessary ingredient of democracy. You can't always win, and, you shouldn't. But I guess you are unable to listen to this simple principle, because you and your people railed yourself up so much that you are unable to calm down. That is weird to me, as I believe that is a skill we all learn when moving from childhood to adulthood. Throwing tantrums isn't very useful.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      Did you ask the question to get a real answer? The difference between right and far right is, in a nutshell, endorsement of insurrection and militarism. The GOP was a right-wing party. MAGA is bona fide far right. There are plenty of conservatives (or pissed-off idiots) who voted for Trump but aren’t MAGA. There are also lots of folks who believe in MAGA to the core. The latter are far right, probably fascists. > democracy is a pendulum. Swinging from side to side is a necessary ingredient of democracy It’s a multidimensional pendulum. There is no natural partisan swing to group dynamics; it’s why parties fail and are remade or replaced, even in two-party systems. Also, Democrats should embrace Trump’s precedents next cycle. But the results will uglier than before for those on the other side. (To port prior policy goals, you’d cancel student debts by literally shredding the documents, thereby undermining the government’s ability to collect even if it wants to. And you’d pursue environmental policy by dismantling coal power plants and mines. The courts may get mad later. But it wouldn’t be rebuilt.)
      - roenxi 1y ago
        Do the multiple elections contested not count any more? MAGA clearly don't endorse insurrection, their basic strategy to control the government is to win lots of votes and come back to try again a few years later if it doesn't work (they're impressively persistent). Which has involved broadening their support base into low-wage minorities in US society and trying to prise the Black and Hispanic votes away from the Democrats, I note. Might be seeing the fruits of that starting to turn up in the 2024 presidential elections. Or might be a fluke and just Trump's charisma, the Republicans are hard to support.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > MAGA clearly don't endorse insurrection Come on, a lot of people in MAGA outright support J6. That is the dividing line between far right and right.
        roenxi 1y ago
- watwut 1y ago
  > Do you actually destinguish between right and far right? Some on the right are far right, some are not. Many people on the right will prefer far right over center and vote accordingly. They just do not like the aesthetic and historical associations. > Because I have a feeling, many people don't. That is because right radicalized itself much more then left. And moderate right spend too much time excusing, enabling to and defending far right then by anything else. They loved to pretend far right does not exist, actually, until it turned out they ended up undistinguishable. > People seem to fail to see the difference between a person with conservative values, and outright "Nazis" Problem is that "conservative values" is more of an euphemism that sounds good when you want to pretend a group of people have much better motivations then they actually have. That is how it was used for over a decade now. People with conservative values rarely object to far right values, but they straight up hate the center (which they claim to be practically communists).
  - lynx97 1y ago
    That is probably a US specific phenomenon, as we in Europe don't have so much dislike towards communism as you guys over there seem to have. However, I could draw the same conclusion as you did regarding left leaning people. People with progressive "values" rarely object to far left values, although they are incapable of having a useful conversation with center people. So.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> If you are far right, I have to keep secrets from you. For safety Wide gulf between “people that share the same values and ideas as you” and Nazis.
- watwut 1y ago
  Nazi share values with quite a lot of people. Nazi adjacent worldview is not as rare as we like to pretend it to be. But I intentionally picked example that makes it clear that shared values are necessary for that trust. You may have differences on the edges, but it wont work without them.
- stackedinserter 1y ago
  Wide gulf between "far right" and Nazis.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Wide gulf between "far right" and Nazis Not really, and I say this with genuine surprise. The folks who support January 6th are also incredibly quick to support ignoring courts, suspending habeus, concentration camps (sorry, extrajudicial domestic detention explicitly based on probable cause that begins and ends with race, followed by attempted exfiltration from protection from the law), and, like, straight up admitting to revering Nazis [1][2]. Democracy works with left- and right-wing elements because there is a lot of heterogeneity in those sets. That makes compromise possible. Far left and far right groups across history are remarkably similar in their policies, messaging and even colour schemes for reasons I don’t get. (There is autocorrelation due to the heavy lifting homage does in their branding, of course, but why do the far right and left always embrace tariffs and trade wars? Like, going back to the Roman Republic.) This uniformity and quasi-religious zeal basically makes them poisons to democracy. The moment someone is arguing why their far right position is actually quite different from being Nazi (or far left from its worst elements), you’ve already lost. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y94xe397o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y94xe397o [2] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-young-gop-club-members-00592146 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-...

by watwut 1y ago

squigz 1y ago

There's a vast difference between "friends who challenge your views in constructive ways" and "people who make you feel unsafe" I feel like GP was probably not referring to the latter.

lynx97 1y ago

Same for "far left", those can't be trusted either. However, what strikes me as interesting: Do you actually destinguish between right and far right? Because I have a feeling, many people don't. Why do I think that? I recently read on Planet Debian: "Conservatives tend to be criminals". That sentences struck me as the core of the problem. People seem to fail to see the difference between a person with conservative values, and outright "Nazis". There is a clear difference, but some politically active people seem to fail to see that.

jfengel 1y ago
Just at the moment: a lot of people who consider themselves merely "right" voted for a candidate who is undeniably "far right". So for the moment I'm not drawing much distinction between "conservative values" and "outright Nazis". That was not always true and I hope it will not remain true. But speaking at this specific time in history, this fact represents a genuine threat to life and liberty.
- lynx97 1y ago
  From my POV, you are pissed that your people lost, and can't get over it. Remember that democracy is a pendulum. Swinging from side to side is a necessary ingredient of democracy. You can't always win, and, you shouldn't. But I guess you are unable to listen to this simple principle, because you and your people railed yourself up so much that you are unable to calm down. That is weird to me, as I believe that is a skill we all learn when moving from childhood to adulthood. Throwing tantrums isn't very useful.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    Did you ask the question to get a real answer? The difference between right and far right is, in a nutshell, endorsement of insurrection and militarism. The GOP was a right-wing party. MAGA is bona fide far right. There are plenty of conservatives (or pissed-off idiots) who voted for Trump but aren’t MAGA. There are also lots of folks who believe in MAGA to the core. The latter are far right, probably fascists. > democracy is a pendulum. Swinging from side to side is a necessary ingredient of democracy It’s a multidimensional pendulum. There is no natural partisan swing to group dynamics; it’s why parties fail and are remade or replaced, even in two-party systems. Also, Democrats should embrace Trump’s precedents next cycle. But the results will uglier than before for those on the other side. (To port prior policy goals, you’d cancel student debts by literally shredding the documents, thereby undermining the government’s ability to collect even if it wants to. And you’d pursue environmental policy by dismantling coal power plants and mines. The courts may get mad later. But it wouldn’t be rebuilt.)
    - roenxi 1y ago
      Do the multiple elections contested not count any more? MAGA clearly don't endorse insurrection, their basic strategy to control the government is to win lots of votes and come back to try again a few years later if it doesn't work (they're impressively persistent). Which has involved broadening their support base into low-wage minorities in US society and trying to prise the Black and Hispanic votes away from the Democrats, I note. Might be seeing the fruits of that starting to turn up in the 2024 presidential elections. Or might be a fluke and just Trump's charisma, the Republicans are hard to support.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > MAGA clearly don't endorse insurrection Come on, a lot of people in MAGA outright support J6. That is the dividing line between far right and right.
        roenxi 1y ago
watwut 1y ago
> Do you actually destinguish between right and far right? Some on the right are far right, some are not. Many people on the right will prefer far right over center and vote accordingly. They just do not like the aesthetic and historical associations. > Because I have a feeling, many people don't. That is because right radicalized itself much more then left. And moderate right spend too much time excusing, enabling to and defending far right then by anything else. They loved to pretend far right does not exist, actually, until it turned out they ended up undistinguishable. > People seem to fail to see the difference between a person with conservative values, and outright "Nazis" Problem is that "conservative values" is more of an euphemism that sounds good when you want to pretend a group of people have much better motivations then they actually have. That is how it was used for over a decade now. People with conservative values rarely object to far right values, but they straight up hate the center (which they claim to be practically communists).
- lynx97 1y ago
  That is probably a US specific phenomenon, as we in Europe don't have so much dislike towards communism as you guys over there seem to have. However, I could draw the same conclusion as you did regarding left leaning people. People with progressive "values" rarely object to far left values, although they are incapable of having a useful conversation with center people. So.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> If you are far right, I have to keep secrets from you. For safety Wide gulf between “people that share the same values and ideas as you” and Nazis.

watwut 1y ago
Nazi share values with quite a lot of people. Nazi adjacent worldview is not as rare as we like to pretend it to be. But I intentionally picked example that makes it clear that shared values are necessary for that trust. You may have differences on the edges, but it wont work without them.
stackedinserter 1y ago
Wide gulf between "far right" and Nazis.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Wide gulf between "far right" and Nazis Not really, and I say this with genuine surprise. The folks who support January 6th are also incredibly quick to support ignoring courts, suspending habeus, concentration camps (sorry, extrajudicial domestic detention explicitly based on probable cause that begins and ends with race, followed by attempted exfiltration from protection from the law), and, like, straight up admitting to revering Nazis [1][2]. Democracy works with left- and right-wing elements because there is a lot of heterogeneity in those sets. That makes compromise possible. Far left and far right groups across history are remarkably similar in their policies, messaging and even colour schemes for reasons I don’t get. (There is autocorrelation due to the heavy lifting homage does in their branding, of course, but why do the far right and left always embrace tariffs and trade wars? Like, going back to the Roman Republic.) This uniformity and quasi-religious zeal basically makes them poisons to democracy. The moment someone is arguing why their far right position is actually quite different from being Nazi (or far left from its worst elements), you’ve already lost. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y94xe397o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y94xe397o [2] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-young-gop-club-members-00592146 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-...