6 ms·

I would agree - usually close friends are limited to people that share the same values and ideas as you. Having more close friends that all think alike would in

by jerlam 1y ago

I would agree - usually close friends are limited to people that share the same values and ideas as you. Having more close friends that all think alike would increase rejection of ideas not shared by other close friends. It is harder (but not impossible) to have close friends that have dramatically different lifestyles, ideals, or socioeconomic class. Weaker ties would include friends that have less in common, and have different ideas. But that fact that they are a friend means that you are aware of their existence and different ideas. In that way, having a broad range of weak friends suggests that you can see things from different perspectives instead of in your own (close) friend bubble. It's like how people are less likely to know their neighbors now, who can hold different ideas. But you don't have to be close friends with them to have some empathy.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> usually close friends are limited to people that share the same values and ideas as you That stirkes me as myopic. My closest friends--the ones I trust with all my secrets, with whom have have practically no secrets, the ones I'd hide if it came to that or risk my life to save--are all over the place values and ideas-wise. It's what makes their company fun. It's also what makes their advice useful, because they'll call me out on my bullshit in a way a mirror image of me could not.
- watwut 1y ago
  If you are far right, I have to keep secrets from you. For safety. And no, someone actively wanting to limit my freedom and safety because their ideology is that women must be limited cant be trusted. They cant be trusted in calling me on my shit, because what they perceive as shit is my self interest and my core values.
  - squigz 1y ago
    There's a vast difference between "friends who challenge your views in constructive ways" and "people who make you feel unsafe" I feel like GP was probably not referring to the latter.
  - lynx97 1y ago
    Same for "far left", those can't be trusted either. However, what strikes me as interesting: Do you actually destinguish between right and far right? Because I have a feeling, many people don't. Why do I think that? I recently read on Planet Debian: "Conservatives tend to be criminals". That sentences struck me as the core of the problem. People seem to fail to see the difference between a person with conservative values, and outright "Nazis". There is a clear difference, but some politically active people seem to fail to see that.
    - jfengel 1y ago
      Just at the moment: a lot of people who consider themselves merely "right" voted for a candidate who is undeniably "far right". So for the moment I'm not drawing much distinction between "conservative values" and "outright Nazis". That was not always true and I hope it will not remain true. But speaking at this specific time in history, this fact represents a genuine threat to life and liberty.
      - lynx97 1y ago
        From my POV, you are pissed that your people lost, and can't get over it. Remember that democracy is a pendulum. Swinging from side to side is a necessary ingredient of democracy. You can't always win, and, you shouldn't. But I guess you are unable to listen to this simple principle, because you and your people railed yourself up so much that you are unable to calm down. That is weird to me, as I believe that is a skill we all learn when moving from childhood to adulthood. Throwing tantrums isn't very useful.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        Did you ask the question to get a real answer? The difference between right and far right is, in a nutshell, endorsement of insurrection and militarism. The GOP was a right-wing party. MAGA is bona fide far right. There are plenty of conservatives (or pissed-off idiots) who voted for Trump but aren’t MAGA. There are also lots of folks who believe in MAGA to the core. The latter are far right, probably fascists. > democracy is a pendulum. Swinging from side to side is a necessary ingredient of democracy It’s a multidimensional pendulum. There is no natural partisan swing to group dynamics; it’s why parties fail and are remade or replaced, even in two-party systems. Also, Democrats should embrace Trump’s precedents next cycle. But the results will uglier than before for those on the other side. (To port prior policy goals, you’d cancel student debts by literally shredding the documents, thereby undermining the government’s ability to collect even if it wants to. And you’d pursue environmental policy by dismantling coal power plants and mines. The courts may get mad later. But it wouldn’t be rebuilt.)
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > If you are far right, I have to keep secrets from you. For safety Wide gulf between “people that share the same values and ideas as you” and Nazis.
    - watwut 1y ago
      Nazi share values with quite a lot of people. Nazi adjacent worldview is not as rare as we like to pretend it to be. But I intentionally picked example that makes it clear that shared values are necessary for that trust. You may have differences on the edges, but it wont work without them.
    - stackedinserter 1y ago
      Wide gulf between "far right" and Nazis.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Wide gulf between "far right" and Nazis Not really, and I say this with genuine surprise. The folks who support January 6th are also incredibly quick to support ignoring courts, suspending habeus, concentration camps (sorry, extrajudicial domestic detention explicitly based on probable cause that begins and ends with race, followed by attempted exfiltration from protection from the law), and, like, straight up admitting to revering Nazis [1][2]. Democracy works with left- and right-wing elements because there is a lot of heterogeneity in those sets. That makes compromise possible. Far left and far right groups across history are remarkably similar in their policies, messaging and even colour schemes for reasons I don’t get. (There is autocorrelation due to the heavy lifting homage does in their branding, of course, but why do the far right and left always embrace tariffs and trade wars? Like, going back to the Roman Republic.) This uniformity and quasi-religious zeal basically makes them poisons to democracy. The moment someone is arguing why their far right position is actually quite different from being Nazi (or far left from its worst elements), you’ve already lost. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y94xe397o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y94xe397o [2] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-young-gop-club-members-00592146 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-...
eleveriven 1y ago
But it also creates echo chambers, especially when your "inner circle" is big enough to feel like a complete social world

by jerlam 1y ago

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> usually close friends are limited to people that share the same values and ideas as you That stirkes me as myopic. My closest friends--the ones I trust with all my secrets, with whom have have practically no secrets, the ones I'd hide if it came to that or risk my life to save--are all over the place values and ideas-wise. It's what makes their company fun. It's also what makes their advice useful, because they'll call me out on my bullshit in a way a mirror image of me could not.

watwut 1y ago
If you are far right, I have to keep secrets from you. For safety. And no, someone actively wanting to limit my freedom and safety because their ideology is that women must be limited cant be trusted. They cant be trusted in calling me on my shit, because what they perceive as shit is my self interest and my core values.
- squigz 1y ago
  There's a vast difference between "friends who challenge your views in constructive ways" and "people who make you feel unsafe" I feel like GP was probably not referring to the latter.
- lynx97 1y ago
  Same for "far left", those can't be trusted either. However, what strikes me as interesting: Do you actually destinguish between right and far right? Because I have a feeling, many people don't. Why do I think that? I recently read on Planet Debian: "Conservatives tend to be criminals". That sentences struck me as the core of the problem. People seem to fail to see the difference between a person with conservative values, and outright "Nazis". There is a clear difference, but some politically active people seem to fail to see that.
  - jfengel 1y ago
    Just at the moment: a lot of people who consider themselves merely "right" voted for a candidate who is undeniably "far right". So for the moment I'm not drawing much distinction between "conservative values" and "outright Nazis". That was not always true and I hope it will not remain true. But speaking at this specific time in history, this fact represents a genuine threat to life and liberty.
    - lynx97 1y ago
      From my POV, you are pissed that your people lost, and can't get over it. Remember that democracy is a pendulum. Swinging from side to side is a necessary ingredient of democracy. You can't always win, and, you shouldn't. But I guess you are unable to listen to this simple principle, because you and your people railed yourself up so much that you are unable to calm down. That is weird to me, as I believe that is a skill we all learn when moving from childhood to adulthood. Throwing tantrums isn't very useful.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        Did you ask the question to get a real answer? The difference between right and far right is, in a nutshell, endorsement of insurrection and militarism. The GOP was a right-wing party. MAGA is bona fide far right. There are plenty of conservatives (or pissed-off idiots) who voted for Trump but aren’t MAGA. There are also lots of folks who believe in MAGA to the core. The latter are far right, probably fascists. > democracy is a pendulum. Swinging from side to side is a necessary ingredient of democracy It’s a multidimensional pendulum. There is no natural partisan swing to group dynamics; it’s why parties fail and are remade or replaced, even in two-party systems. Also, Democrats should embrace Trump’s precedents next cycle. But the results will uglier than before for those on the other side. (To port prior policy goals, you’d cancel student debts by literally shredding the documents, thereby undermining the government’s ability to collect even if it wants to. And you’d pursue environmental policy by dismantling coal power plants and mines. The courts may get mad later. But it wouldn’t be rebuilt.)
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > If you are far right, I have to keep secrets from you. For safety Wide gulf between “people that share the same values and ideas as you” and Nazis.
  - watwut 1y ago
    Nazi share values with quite a lot of people. Nazi adjacent worldview is not as rare as we like to pretend it to be. But I intentionally picked example that makes it clear that shared values are necessary for that trust. You may have differences on the edges, but it wont work without them.
  - stackedinserter 1y ago
    Wide gulf between "far right" and Nazis.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Wide gulf between "far right" and Nazis Not really, and I say this with genuine surprise. The folks who support January 6th are also incredibly quick to support ignoring courts, suspending habeus, concentration camps (sorry, extrajudicial domestic detention explicitly based on probable cause that begins and ends with race, followed by attempted exfiltration from protection from the law), and, like, straight up admitting to revering Nazis [1][2]. Democracy works with left- and right-wing elements because there is a lot of heterogeneity in those sets. That makes compromise possible. Far left and far right groups across history are remarkably similar in their policies, messaging and even colour schemes for reasons I don’t get. (There is autocorrelation due to the heavy lifting homage does in their branding, of course, but why do the far right and left always embrace tariffs and trade wars? Like, going back to the Roman Republic.) This uniformity and quasi-religious zeal basically makes them poisons to democracy. The moment someone is arguing why their far right position is actually quite different from being Nazi (or far left from its worst elements), you’ve already lost. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y94xe397o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2y94xe397o [2] https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-young-gop-club-members-00592146 https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-...

eleveriven 1y ago

But it also creates echo chambers, especially when your "inner circle" is big enough to feel like a complete social world