3 ms·

Sure... "I'm too busy fighting fires to come up with a solution" is always a valid answer, but that's not what I was replying to.

lxgr 1y ago
Even with infinite resources (love to see that in real companies!), any such solution adds complexity, which comes at a cost.
- latchkey 1y ago
  If this is a complexity battle, I'd rather that sysadmins have to use a tool to read logs vs. figuring out why the server is melting down because all the jobs are running 2x or answering questions about why jobs didn't run at all. In my old gig, jobs ran for many many HOURS and consumed most of the IO on the server (processing reams of data), which meant that when you got them running 2x because of overlap, it was a trainwreck.
  - lxgr 1y ago
    In my experience, it's really not pleasant having to work with logs that require a dedicated viewer compared to regular old text files I can use Unix commands available everywhere (`tail`, `head`, `wc` etc), with, i.e. not just on the server producing the logs, but also the device I'm viewing them on. That said, I absolutely prefer UTC times in logfiles. I'd rather do some math every time than make wrong assumptions about the local timezone of the file even once. (Even correctly indicated local times are more annoying, since I have the math for the offset of my timezone to UTC memorized, but not that of every possible server time to mine.)
    - latchkey 1y ago
      alias tail="my fancy log viewer tail wrapper" https://thecasualcoder.github.io/tztail/ https://thecasualcoder.github.io/tztail/
      - lxgr 1y ago
        That's exactly the type of thing I like to avoid having to do on some remote server, inside a container's minimal shell etc.
        latchkey 1y ago
        If you're at that level, I'd be exporting the logs anyway.
  - munchlax 1y ago
    Yup. There's always some kind of tool anyway so why not. I mean, even if you read the logs as they come out of a screaming line printer, the tool is the thing that takes log messages and spits them out the printer port. How hard can it be to write a log cat utility in awk?
    - lxgr 1y ago
      Harder than not having to, in any case.
- array_key_first 1y ago
  Naively storing timezones also adds complexity, just later and probably someone else's problem. Timezones are naturally complex. They just are. If you're not handling it, then your stuff is broken.
  - lxgr 1y ago
    This is a conversation about what timezone to configure on a server, no? Of course all stored timestamps should include a timezone (assuming there's a local context to the events they refer to) if at all possible. I hope that part is not controversial.

lxgr 1y ago

Even with infinite resources (love to see that in real companies!), any such solution adds complexity, which comes at a cost.

latchkey 1y ago
If this is a complexity battle, I'd rather that sysadmins have to use a tool to read logs vs. figuring out why the server is melting down because all the jobs are running 2x or answering questions about why jobs didn't run at all. In my old gig, jobs ran for many many HOURS and consumed most of the IO on the server (processing reams of data), which meant that when you got them running 2x because of overlap, it was a trainwreck.
- lxgr 1y ago
  In my experience, it's really not pleasant having to work with logs that require a dedicated viewer compared to regular old text files I can use Unix commands available everywhere (`tail`, `head`, `wc` etc), with, i.e. not just on the server producing the logs, but also the device I'm viewing them on. That said, I absolutely prefer UTC times in logfiles. I'd rather do some math every time than make wrong assumptions about the local timezone of the file even once. (Even correctly indicated local times are more annoying, since I have the math for the offset of my timezone to UTC memorized, but not that of every possible server time to mine.)
  - latchkey 1y ago
    alias tail="my fancy log viewer tail wrapper" https://thecasualcoder.github.io/tztail/ https://thecasualcoder.github.io/tztail/
    - lxgr 1y ago
      That's exactly the type of thing I like to avoid having to do on some remote server, inside a container's minimal shell etc.
      - latchkey 1y ago
        If you're at that level, I'd be exporting the logs anyway.
- munchlax 1y ago
  Yup. There's always some kind of tool anyway so why not. I mean, even if you read the logs as they come out of a screaming line printer, the tool is the thing that takes log messages and spits them out the printer port. How hard can it be to write a log cat utility in awk?
  - lxgr 1y ago
    Harder than not having to, in any case.
array_key_first 1y ago
Naively storing timezones also adds complexity, just later and probably someone else's problem. Timezones are naturally complex. They just are. If you're not handling it, then your stuff is broken.
- lxgr 1y ago
  This is a conversation about what timezone to configure on a server, no? Of course all stored timestamps should include a timezone (assuming there's a local context to the events they refer to) if at all possible. I hope that part is not controversial.