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Yes, but that requires admitting that the employees are flesh and bones humans with human social relationships between them and this stuff can't be tabulated an

Yes, but that requires admitting that the employees are flesh and bones humans with human social relationships between them and this stuff can't be tabulated and accounted and bean-counted. And it's rather outright seen as a risk factor, makes people less fungible, there's a risk that they gang up against the management, or there could be legal risk if they build too much of an insider culture etc. Highly aligned motivated and talented people with shared core values (like the pioneer ethos of hackers, tech optimism etc, and cultural references etc) can achieve so much. And they tend to work odd hours and overtime because they want to make the thing, and not because of hoping to get rich. Now I have two things to say about this. First, this type of passion is special and a manager can't hope to simply force it, and if it's demanded then all you get will be talkers who know the lingo of being so super passionate. The thing must be worth being passionate about and the team has to be aligned with the goal and have latitude to shape the project. This kind of work bes happens when the higher up kinda forget the team and they just intrinsically do it. It can't be planned. Second, some people are very opposed to these hight effort, almost obsessed teams because they see it as unfair ideals or unfair competition, because obviously someone with a family who has to pick up the kids at 4 pm can't do this cracked push overnight and sleeping at the office etc. But greatness simy cannot be made from steady, fixed-pace 9-5 jobs with work life balance and atomized employees. And that's okay, for most things we don't need greatness just okayness. But often people still can't stand that there are such great teams and want to drag them down in one way or another.

foldr 1y ago
> But often people still can't stand that there are such great teams and want to drag them down in one way or another. This seems like an unnecessary attribution of malicious intentions. The obvious explanation for why people often oppose a culture of long hours is that long hours suck for anyone with a life outside of work. You explain this yourself with the example of someone who has kids.
- bonoboTP 1y ago
  Yes, but it shouldn't be mandatory for "regular" jobs. People often dislike the idea that there are some ambitious, agentic, talented, motivated people who really put in the hours and their job is simultaneously their hobby etc. Again, I'm not for the cringe corporate pretending to be one big family smiling and singing. But clearly there are really strong, aligned teams that want to accomplish something and have the corresponding freedom to creatively shape the path forward. And such teams are just vastly more effective and can do stuff in a weekend that a traditional committee-based process would not get done in a year. But again, this is a fraction of a percent of people who are built for that kind of work. But let some people just be weird and misfits! Somehow the same standards are not applied to athletes who train insane hours or musicians on tour. My point is, let's be grateful to have such exceptional people instead of complaining about them or how they set an unrealistic standard or whatever.
  - foldr 1y ago
    If these exceptional people are making it necessary for me to work very long hours too, then it’s fair enough for me to complain about that, no? Very few of the people you are talking about are curing cancer (so to speak), so why are the rest of us required to be grateful to them? Let’s look at it another way. Someone who’s willing to work an 80 hour week for the same pay that I get is roughly equivalent to someone who’ll do my job for half the pay (leaving aside the dubious productivity benefits of long hours). Should I be grateful for the existence of such a person? We do not usually romanticize people who are willing to do professional jobs for low compensation. Why romanticize people who work crazy hours? If I voluntarily took a 50% pay cut, would you wax lyrical about how the world needs more exceptional people like me? > And such teams are just vastly more effective and can do stuff in a weekend that a traditional committee-based process would not get done in a year. Here you’re conflating two different things. Small agile teams that have the freedom to work without bureaucratic overhead are great, but there is no inherent need for them to work crazy hours. If anything, long hours are often a symptom of an environment where people are judged on how long they stay in the office rather than on the quality of their work.
    - bonoboTP 1y ago

foldr 1y ago

> But often people still can't stand that there are such great teams and want to drag them down in one way or another. This seems like an unnecessary attribution of malicious intentions. The obvious explanation for why people often oppose a culture of long hours is that long hours suck for anyone with a life outside of work. You explain this yourself with the example of someone who has kids.

bonoboTP 1y ago
Yes, but it shouldn't be mandatory for "regular" jobs. People often dislike the idea that there are some ambitious, agentic, talented, motivated people who really put in the hours and their job is simultaneously their hobby etc. Again, I'm not for the cringe corporate pretending to be one big family smiling and singing. But clearly there are really strong, aligned teams that want to accomplish something and have the corresponding freedom to creatively shape the path forward. And such teams are just vastly more effective and can do stuff in a weekend that a traditional committee-based process would not get done in a year. But again, this is a fraction of a percent of people who are built for that kind of work. But let some people just be weird and misfits! Somehow the same standards are not applied to athletes who train insane hours or musicians on tour. My point is, let's be grateful to have such exceptional people instead of complaining about them or how they set an unrealistic standard or whatever.
- foldr 1y ago
  If these exceptional people are making it necessary for me to work very long hours too, then it’s fair enough for me to complain about that, no? Very few of the people you are talking about are curing cancer (so to speak), so why are the rest of us required to be grateful to them? Let’s look at it another way. Someone who’s willing to work an 80 hour week for the same pay that I get is roughly equivalent to someone who’ll do my job for half the pay (leaving aside the dubious productivity benefits of long hours). Should I be grateful for the existence of such a person? We do not usually romanticize people who are willing to do professional jobs for low compensation. Why romanticize people who work crazy hours? If I voluntarily took a 50% pay cut, would you wax lyrical about how the world needs more exceptional people like me? > And such teams are just vastly more effective and can do stuff in a weekend that a traditional committee-based process would not get done in a year. Here you’re conflating two different things. Small agile teams that have the freedom to work without bureaucratic overhead are great, but there is no inherent need for them to work crazy hours. If anything, long hours are often a symptom of an environment where people are judged on how long they stay in the office rather than on the quality of their work.
  - bonoboTP 1y ago