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No capitalist market country is independent of any other country in the 21st century and for most of the 20th. This isn't saying much, it's just a matter of deg

No capitalist market country is independent of any other country in the 21st century and for most of the 20th. This isn't saying much, it's just a matter of degrees. Yes, Canada is economically integrated with the US to a massive degree and we're each other's biggest trading partners. But the analogy with California is a totally false one. They are a US state subject to its federal laws and political system. We are not. We maintain political independence, and need to maintain that independence.

petermcneeley 1y ago
'We maintain political independence, and need to maintain that independence.' By allowing EVs from China? You would think if you wanted to be independent you would have your own EV car company. If EVs are the future and Canada cannot make competitive EVs with china this means Canada will not have an auto sector. Given that there are hundreds of thousands of people working in this area it doesnt actually bode well for Canadians. I am actually Canadian this is why I am so familiar with the situation.
- cmrdporcupine 1y ago
  I think we're in substantial agreement but Canada has this sickness in all sectors which seems to stop us from authoring our own destiny, some of it is cultural but I think the bulk of it is economic. Most investors here don't take risks because they're busy living low-risk parasitical lives off the resource export and real estate industries. I would love a Canadian EV company to exist because I'd love to work there as a software engineer. Got any leads? :-)
  - bryanlarsen 1y ago
    I highly doubt they're hiring software engineers, but https://edisonmotors.ca/ https://edisonmotors.ca/ has a promising approach.
    - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
      Cool! Good for them!
  - petermcneeley 1y ago
    You will guarantee that there is no EV manufacturing in Canada if you allow for wholesale important of offshore EVs. Just as there is no manufacturing of almost anything else within Canada. You are literally advocating for something that is against your own desires.
    - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
      I don't think it's so clear cut. The US auto sector packing up and leaving and taking the auto parts manufacturing world with it -- which is what's happening now anyways -- wouldn't exactly create massive opportunities here, either.
      - petermcneeley 1y ago
        Having your own EV companies (or just own auto company) would. I think you need to think about why you find this confusing.
        wmoxam 1y ago
        Who would buy these EVs if we build them in Canada? The Canadian market cannot support a car company without exporting the majority of production. The US is our largest natural market and does not want our auto exports. It's unclear why other markets would want our EVs either. Artificial barriers to protect an industry where we don't have an advantage (autos) which results in tariffs on a sectors where we do (agricultural products, resources) isn't sustainable or desirable.
        petermcneeley 1y ago
        Even if this is the myopic best option at the end you will end up with ... a resource extraction economy. Is that really what you want?
        cmrdporcupine 1y ago
        Unfortunately that (rip and ship energy / resource exporter economy) is what the conservative party wants, what the political leadership in the prairie provinces want, and it's what the US wants for us. And it's hinted at increasingly by Carney ("energy superpower") etc. You're right it's myopic and not good. But parent poster is correct that blindly subsidizing and funding a local industry with no market will also just lead to boondoggles and failures. Especially in the context of an uncooperative trading partner which could have been a potential export market for our production in the past but now is a hostile state trying to break apart national unity and destroy what little manufacturing sector successes we have. We've already had major issues around the massive battery construction plants proposed here in Ontario and Quebec, that got major government support and investment. Unfortunately this is the very difficult place the manufacturing sector in Canada finds itself in. And the Canadian working class as a whole. I wouldn't call it myopic to be skeptical here. If there was an easy answer Canada would have taken it decades ago.
DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
The problem for Canada is that it is so heavily integrated with the United States economy and so heavily dependent on trade with the United States that it is susceptible to a level of coercion that seriously calls its sovereignty into question. Up until Trump, Canadians viewed the United States as a friendly country, and had a hard time imagining that the US would actually employ its massive leverage in a malicious way. The most concerning thing for Canadians should not be that Trump has tried to employ this leverage against Canada, but that Americans haven't risen up in revolt against this attack on a friendly country. Canada cannot rely on the US being a friendly country in the future, even if Trump does leave office in 2029 (which he is already suggesting he may not do). So legally speaking, yes, Canada is not like California. Canada is formally an independent country. But practically speaking, unless Canada takes drastic measures, it may become more like California than like an independent country, for all practical intents and purposes.

petermcneeley 1y ago

'We maintain political independence, and need to maintain that independence.' By allowing EVs from China? You would think if you wanted to be independent you would have your own EV car company. If EVs are the future and Canada cannot make competitive EVs with china this means Canada will not have an auto sector. Given that there are hundreds of thousands of people working in this area it doesnt actually bode well for Canadians. I am actually Canadian this is why I am so familiar with the situation.

cmrdporcupine 1y ago
I think we're in substantial agreement but Canada has this sickness in all sectors which seems to stop us from authoring our own destiny, some of it is cultural but I think the bulk of it is economic. Most investors here don't take risks because they're busy living low-risk parasitical lives off the resource export and real estate industries. I would love a Canadian EV company to exist because I'd love to work there as a software engineer. Got any leads? :-)
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  I highly doubt they're hiring software engineers, but https://edisonmotors.ca/ https://edisonmotors.ca/ has a promising approach.
  - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
    Cool! Good for them!
- petermcneeley 1y ago
  You will guarantee that there is no EV manufacturing in Canada if you allow for wholesale important of offshore EVs. Just as there is no manufacturing of almost anything else within Canada. You are literally advocating for something that is against your own desires.
  - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
    I don't think it's so clear cut. The US auto sector packing up and leaving and taking the auto parts manufacturing world with it -- which is what's happening now anyways -- wouldn't exactly create massive opportunities here, either.
    - petermcneeley 1y ago
      Having your own EV companies (or just own auto company) would. I think you need to think about why you find this confusing.
      - wmoxam 1y ago
        Who would buy these EVs if we build them in Canada? The Canadian market cannot support a car company without exporting the majority of production. The US is our largest natural market and does not want our auto exports. It's unclear why other markets would want our EVs either. Artificial barriers to protect an industry where we don't have an advantage (autos) which results in tariffs on a sectors where we do (agricultural products, resources) isn't sustainable or desirable.
        petermcneeley 1y ago
        Even if this is the myopic best option at the end you will end up with ... a resource extraction economy. Is that really what you want?
        cmrdporcupine 1y ago
        Unfortunately that (rip and ship energy / resource exporter economy) is what the conservative party wants, what the political leadership in the prairie provinces want, and it's what the US wants for us. And it's hinted at increasingly by Carney ("energy superpower") etc. You're right it's myopic and not good. But parent poster is correct that blindly subsidizing and funding a local industry with no market will also just lead to boondoggles and failures. Especially in the context of an uncooperative trading partner which could have been a potential export market for our production in the past but now is a hostile state trying to break apart national unity and destroy what little manufacturing sector successes we have. We've already had major issues around the massive battery construction plants proposed here in Ontario and Quebec, that got major government support and investment. Unfortunately this is the very difficult place the manufacturing sector in Canada finds itself in. And the Canadian working class as a whole. I wouldn't call it myopic to be skeptical here. If there was an easy answer Canada would have taken it decades ago.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

The problem for Canada is that it is so heavily integrated with the United States economy and so heavily dependent on trade with the United States that it is susceptible to a level of coercion that seriously calls its sovereignty into question. Up until Trump, Canadians viewed the United States as a friendly country, and had a hard time imagining that the US would actually employ its massive leverage in a malicious way. The most concerning thing for Canadians should not be that Trump has tried to employ this leverage against Canada, but that Americans haven't risen up in revolt against this attack on a friendly country. Canada cannot rely on the US being a friendly country in the future, even if Trump does leave office in 2029 (which he is already suggesting he may not do). So legally speaking, yes, Canada is not like California. Canada is formally an independent country. But practically speaking, unless Canada takes drastic measures, it may become more like California than like an independent country, for all practical intents and purposes.