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I have an ugly hunch that systemd gonna be Google Play Services of Linux at some point. I beg history to prove me wrong. For anyone interested, please look at

I have an ugly hunch that systemd gonna be Google Play Services of Linux at some point. I beg history to prove me wrong. For anyone interested, please look at Hardware attestation and TiVoization, thanks.

array_key_first 1y ago
Well systemd is open source so it could just be forked at any point. I don't forsee this happening.
baq 1y ago
it's in the name, but it's open source and it's replacing a hodgepodge of other stuff (the point isn't why it's replacing it, or how well it's going; the point is there are replacements). if the computer won't allow to install or use other software until you install a vendor-signed version of systemd on a vendor-signed kernel we'll be there. it's about hardware attestation, not signed software, though.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  What it bothers me is the possibility of TiVoization via Kernel and systemd, actually. Combined with uutils, which is MIT, you can build a nice (!) walled garden. Let me say I have seen enough shenanigans over the years.
symbogra 1y ago
This is a bizarre comment for an open source init system
- bayindirh 1y ago
  The history of TiVoization[0] tells us otherwise. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization
  - symbogra 1y ago
    Is the issue that they support secure boot type features?
    - bayindirh 1y ago
      No, the issue is too much of the Secure Boot chain is currently being controlled by Microsoft. Kernel being GPL has no point currently. Require hardware attestation with Microsoft private keys + systemd-boot + systemd + uutils can create a nice walled garden, allowing "vendors" to build locked-down hardware-OS pairs. More importantly, uutils is MIT, which can attest at every level, without sharing a line of source code. This will affect everything from small appliances to big iron and it can be very ugly.
      - bitwize 1y ago
        Uutils is literally one guy's self-tutorial to learn Rust. The fact that it's breaking Ubuntu has more to do with that than some shadowy conspiracy.
        bayindirh 1y ago
        Looking at the uutils/coreutils repository: - 22K stars - 1600+ forks - 33 releases - 622 contributors - 678 users (at minimum) - Code of conduct (with a debian.org mailing address nonetheless) - 1 distribution shipping it as default (so far) The project has the stated goal as follows [0]: > The uutils project reimplements ubiquitous command line utilities in Rust. Our goal is to modernize the utils, while retaining full compatibility with the existing utilities. We are planning to replace all essential Linux tools. This is hell of a self-tutorial. If this was GPL licensed, I'd love to try these. But at this point, it's looking for pushing GNU out of the Linux ecosystem, completely. [0]: https://uutils.github.io/ https://uutils.github.io/
      - deadbunny 1y ago
        You don't have to use MS' keys, you can setup secure boot using your own keys reasonably easily. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface/Secure_Boot#Using_your_own_keys https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware...
dooglius 1y ago
People are trying to lock down Linux yes, but the specific software used for enforcement, systemd or otherwise, is mostly irrelevant.

array_key_first 1y ago

Well systemd is open source so it could just be forked at any point. I don't forsee this happening.

baq 1y ago

it's in the name, but it's open source and it's replacing a hodgepodge of other stuff (the point isn't why it's replacing it, or how well it's going; the point is there are replacements). if the computer won't allow to install or use other software until you install a vendor-signed version of systemd on a vendor-signed kernel we'll be there. it's about hardware attestation, not signed software, though.

bayindirh 1y ago
What it bothers me is the possibility of TiVoization via Kernel and systemd, actually. Combined with uutils, which is MIT, you can build a nice (!) walled garden. Let me say I have seen enough shenanigans over the years.

symbogra 1y ago

This is a bizarre comment for an open source init system

bayindirh 1y ago
The history of TiVoization[0] tells us otherwise. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization
- symbogra 1y ago
  Is the issue that they support secure boot type features?
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    No, the issue is too much of the Secure Boot chain is currently being controlled by Microsoft. Kernel being GPL has no point currently. Require hardware attestation with Microsoft private keys + systemd-boot + systemd + uutils can create a nice walled garden, allowing "vendors" to build locked-down hardware-OS pairs. More importantly, uutils is MIT, which can attest at every level, without sharing a line of source code. This will affect everything from small appliances to big iron and it can be very ugly.
    - bitwize 1y ago
      Uutils is literally one guy's self-tutorial to learn Rust. The fact that it's breaking Ubuntu has more to do with that than some shadowy conspiracy.
      - bayindirh 1y ago
        Looking at the uutils/coreutils repository: - 22K stars - 1600+ forks - 33 releases - 622 contributors - 678 users (at minimum) - Code of conduct (with a debian.org mailing address nonetheless) - 1 distribution shipping it as default (so far) The project has the stated goal as follows [0]: > The uutils project reimplements ubiquitous command line utilities in Rust. Our goal is to modernize the utils, while retaining full compatibility with the existing utilities. We are planning to replace all essential Linux tools. This is hell of a self-tutorial. If this was GPL licensed, I'd love to try these. But at this point, it's looking for pushing GNU out of the Linux ecosystem, completely. [0]: https://uutils.github.io/ https://uutils.github.io/
    - deadbunny 1y ago
      You don't have to use MS' keys, you can setup secure boot using your own keys reasonably easily. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface/Secure_Boot#Using_your_own_keys https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_Extensible_Firmware...

dooglius 1y ago

People are trying to lock down Linux yes, but the specific software used for enforcement, systemd or otherwise, is mostly irrelevant.