4 ms·

Cool idea and execution but having in-app purchases to buy hints for a game targeted to kids is a big no. I get the market forces and such but I don't want to

Cool idea and execution but having in-app purchases to buy hints for a game targeted to kids is a big no. I get the market forces and such but I don't want to have an app subtly teach my non-existent kids to reach out to in-app purchases like that.

twostraws 1y ago
If you try the game and like it – if you've run through the 10 tutorial challenges and thought, "I like this and want more" – there's a separate version of the app that is an up-front, one-time purchase with no in-app purchases at all. You pay once and get everything. Get it here: https://apps.apple.com/app/id6754342195 https://apps.apple.com/app/id6754342195
- randunel 1y ago
  Oh, so having a separate (paid for) app makes targeting kids with in app purchases OK in the (free) app you advertise?
  - twostraws 1y ago
    If I only released an up-front payment version, people would complain that they weren't able to try the app first. If I only released a free version with in-app purchases, people would complain that they don't like in-app purchases. I did both, and I'm still getting complaints. I get that my solution is imperfect, but I'm trying my best.
    - wffurr 1y ago
      I really appreciate you having a full unlocked copy of the game with up front pricing and trying to solve this issue in a thoughtful way. In the old days, the free version would be a limited preview of the game, and would direct users to purchase the full game. We called it a demo or shareware, as in you were intended to share and copy it widely. You could also have the “in app purchase” be the full game unlock.
      - max002 1y ago
        Member it (southpark) :) one could learn some assembler by taking down those limitations and cd checks. Who would thought that it will be useful in reverse engineering malwqre in future? Hah... Dont get me wrong, at that time very little ppl in my country had ccs to actually buy any software even if, they wouldnt give it to kids :)
    - aeon_ai 1y ago
      The issue here is that you are trying to bridge two disparate goals - making money and helping kids. The fact that this isn’t open source, as it stands, means the latter is not a primary goal - which is not an indictment, just an observation. The complaints will come, regardless, for that reason alone, given the marketing/narrative. You’re selling a product to parents/educators who want to gamify the technical education of their children. That market, small as it is, despises micro transactions.
      - dghlsakjg 1y ago
        What does open sourcing an application have to do with helping kids? There are plenty of arguments for open sourcing things. “Closed source apps necessarily deprioritize helping children” is not an obvious argument to me. Can you draw the connection more explicitly?
        aeon_ai 1y ago
        Scale and accessibility - Eliminating any barriers for children to get access to education, etc. Not to mention, it’s an app trying to help kids get exposed to underpinning technologies - seeing how the game itself is made would be optimizing for that end. It’s not that closed source deprioritizes, but the “helping kids” were the sole and primary goal sought, there’s a clear answer to what would align with that. All said, it’s not a critique of the OP - reconciling ideals and practical reality often require trade offs that would allow for a project like this to happen in the first place.
        twostraws 1y ago
        I think it's hugely important to eliminate barriers to get access to education, which is why there's a free, web-based version of Hacktivate that is already being used 350+ schools around the world. I also think there's a lot of people out there who would pay to have Hacktivate running offline, using the full power of their device, and with no external resources being required, so I made that too. Suggesting that I need to make them open source to prove I want to help kids learn is really strange, particularly when literally thousands of students around the world are benefitting from my work without paying a cent.
    - cheschire 1y ago
      Good early lesson of small business and app development is you can’t make everyone happy. Trying to though will be guaranteed to make at least one person unhappy, and that’s you. So take advice where it’s offered but don’t mistake complaints for advice.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - anonymous908213 1y ago
      This is a solved problem. It's called a "demo". What it entails is giving a small sample of your product completely for free, with no monetization at all, in order to entice a prospective buyer for more. It may be less lucrative than selling microtransactions to literal children, but it is something that people won't complain about, if you are genuinely in the market for a solution and not just trying to farm money off of scamming kids into swiping their parents' credit card because they have no idea what it's worth.
      - twostraws 1y ago
        You say "solved problem", then suggest something explicitly banned by Apple's app review guidelines.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        inanutshellus 1y ago
        1. HN folk are being surprisingly hostile here and it's not cool. 2. Is it really true that "the game is X levels and in-app purchases is a-lot-more-levels" is banned but "the game is Y levels and limited features and in-app purchases gets you features and hints" is not?
        fainpul 1y ago
        I'm confused, because the version you can install for free is literally that: you get the 10 tutorial challenges and 1 subsequent challenge for free, then you have to pay to buy / unlock the full game. How is that different from the classic shareware / demo concept? Obviously it's not banned.
        fragmede 1y ago
        > Demos, betas, and trial versions of your app don’t belong on the App Store – use TestFlight instead. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#beta-testing https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#bet...
    - yojo 1y ago
      The HN crowd is touchy on some topics. Don’t take it too personally - good on you for building something cool and shipping it. FWIW my favorite non-predatory pattern is a level-limited free version with a single “unlock full game” IAP. That way users don’t have to lose their progress switching to paid.
      - skeeter2020 1y ago
        This is just an optimized version of shareware, now that we don't need to mail in a cheque to get the full set of floppies. seems self-defeating to reference anything like "in app purchase" for what's jsut a path for an immediate update after the user completes a known subset of levels.
  - stronglikedan 1y ago
    yes, absolutely. options are always the right thing. nothing wrong with "targeting kids with in app purchases" if you're up front about it
- xandrius 1y ago
  Show them X free levels and with free hints. When they get into the groove, at X+1 level show them "Did you like this? You can get 200+ levels if you convince your parents that this is a worthwhile investment for your learning." (copy TBD) and bam, you have a traditional game with a demo and a way to buy it that doesn't train kids to expect in-app purchases for every breath they take. And btw, $25 is high even for an indie steam game, a mobile game will be even harder to market at that price. Just FYI. Best of luck!
- figassis 1y ago
  Thank you. I am always willing to pay a premium for kids apps that don't have any dark patterns, subscription crap or in app purchases. It's sad that the market has been so corrupted that now customers are asked to pay a premium to keep kids safe and sane.
  - twostraws 1y ago
    You'll be pleased to know that the app is not only a one-time payment, but also has zero tracking – no analytics, no logging, no adverts, and no data collection of any kind.
    - xandrius 1y ago
      Can I see the source code? Else it's just words :/
      - twostraws 1y ago
        Source code wouldn't help, because there's no way to verify any code I showed would be the same as the version on the App Store. Fortunately, you can just watch the network packets leaving from your device when you run the app, and you'll see literally nothing coming to me.
TimByte 1y ago
Yep, in-app purchases aimed at kids is always a sensitive area
- Tade0 1y ago
  "sensitive" undersells it. Apple in its refund form has an option to select "unauthorised in-app purchase by a minor" as the reason. I was not aware how predatory this market has become until an annual subscription after a "one week trial" renewed itself automatically despite having been already cancelled on the last day. I'm assuming the money is lost because third party subscriptions might require earlier cancellation, but that was the last time I allowed for anything with such a short trial period.
jrm4 1y ago
I dig it; and if the kids figure out how to get what they want WITHOUT paying for a damn thing, EVEN BETTER.
Fokamul 1y ago
Hmm, meanwhile you have whole gaming platforms like Steam, where they basically make huge profit from gambling in games like Counter-strike and others. And hmm whose playing those games?
- ChicagoBoy11 1y ago
  In defense of the parent comment, I don't know that he suggested that it wasn't effective, but it is a dark pattern that probably should be avoided if the gist of the effort is to truly be an educational game that you'd want to enthusiastically support.
- doublepg23 1y ago
  Aren't most micro-transactions like those purely cosmetic?
  - gmueckl 1y ago
    They are in Valve's own games. But items drop at different rates, which creates artificial scarciry and items can also be traded for money.
  - giobox 1y ago
    Yes for Valve, but that hasn't stopped a secondary market transacting tens of thousands of dollars or more for them in some cases. > https://dmarket.com/blog/most-expensive-csgo-skins https://dmarket.com/blog/most-expensive-csgo-skins > https://tradeit.gg/csgo/store https://tradeit.gg/csgo/store
- sieabahlpark 1y ago
  [dead]
- xandrius 1y ago
  But the makers of CS don't go around telling their game is targeted at kids. And that's another topic, plus this is part of the gameplay, not just some cosmetic stuff.
krackers 1y ago
That's just part of the meta-game, to get kids to jailbreak the iphone and then patch the IPA
BobbyTables2 1y ago
What you describe is practically every Roblox game out there… (yeah it’s horrible )

twostraws 1y ago

If you try the game and like it – if you've run through the 10 tutorial challenges and thought, "I like this and want more" – there's a separate version of the app that is an up-front, one-time purchase with no in-app purchases at all. You pay once and get everything. Get it here: https://apps.apple.com/app/id6754342195 https://apps.apple.com/app/id6754342195

randunel 1y ago
Oh, so having a separate (paid for) app makes targeting kids with in app purchases OK in the (free) app you advertise?
- twostraws 1y ago
  If I only released an up-front payment version, people would complain that they weren't able to try the app first. If I only released a free version with in-app purchases, people would complain that they don't like in-app purchases. I did both, and I'm still getting complaints. I get that my solution is imperfect, but I'm trying my best.
  - wffurr 1y ago
    I really appreciate you having a full unlocked copy of the game with up front pricing and trying to solve this issue in a thoughtful way. In the old days, the free version would be a limited preview of the game, and would direct users to purchase the full game. We called it a demo or shareware, as in you were intended to share and copy it widely. You could also have the “in app purchase” be the full game unlock.
    - max002 1y ago
      Member it (southpark) :) one could learn some assembler by taking down those limitations and cd checks. Who would thought that it will be useful in reverse engineering malwqre in future? Hah... Dont get me wrong, at that time very little ppl in my country had ccs to actually buy any software even if, they wouldnt give it to kids :)
  - aeon_ai 1y ago
    The issue here is that you are trying to bridge two disparate goals - making money and helping kids. The fact that this isn’t open source, as it stands, means the latter is not a primary goal - which is not an indictment, just an observation. The complaints will come, regardless, for that reason alone, given the marketing/narrative. You’re selling a product to parents/educators who want to gamify the technical education of their children. That market, small as it is, despises micro transactions.
    - dghlsakjg 1y ago
      What does open sourcing an application have to do with helping kids? There are plenty of arguments for open sourcing things. “Closed source apps necessarily deprioritize helping children” is not an obvious argument to me. Can you draw the connection more explicitly?
      - aeon_ai 1y ago
        Scale and accessibility - Eliminating any barriers for children to get access to education, etc. Not to mention, it’s an app trying to help kids get exposed to underpinning technologies - seeing how the game itself is made would be optimizing for that end. It’s not that closed source deprioritizes, but the “helping kids” were the sole and primary goal sought, there’s a clear answer to what would align with that. All said, it’s not a critique of the OP - reconciling ideals and practical reality often require trade offs that would allow for a project like this to happen in the first place.
        twostraws 1y ago
        I think it's hugely important to eliminate barriers to get access to education, which is why there's a free, web-based version of Hacktivate that is already being used 350+ schools around the world. I also think there's a lot of people out there who would pay to have Hacktivate running offline, using the full power of their device, and with no external resources being required, so I made that too. Suggesting that I need to make them open source to prove I want to help kids learn is really strange, particularly when literally thousands of students around the world are benefitting from my work without paying a cent.
  - cheschire 1y ago
    Good early lesson of small business and app development is you can’t make everyone happy. Trying to though will be guaranteed to make at least one person unhappy, and that’s you. So take advice where it’s offered but don’t mistake complaints for advice.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - anonymous908213 1y ago
    This is a solved problem. It's called a "demo". What it entails is giving a small sample of your product completely for free, with no monetization at all, in order to entice a prospective buyer for more. It may be less lucrative than selling microtransactions to literal children, but it is something that people won't complain about, if you are genuinely in the market for a solution and not just trying to farm money off of scamming kids into swiping their parents' credit card because they have no idea what it's worth.
    - twostraws 1y ago
      You say "solved problem", then suggest something explicitly banned by Apple's app review guidelines.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - inanutshellus 1y ago
        1. HN folk are being surprisingly hostile here and it's not cool. 2. Is it really true that "the game is X levels and in-app purchases is a-lot-more-levels" is banned but "the game is Y levels and limited features and in-app purchases gets you features and hints" is not?
        fainpul 1y ago
        I'm confused, because the version you can install for free is literally that: you get the 10 tutorial challenges and 1 subsequent challenge for free, then you have to pay to buy / unlock the full game. How is that different from the classic shareware / demo concept? Obviously it's not banned.
        fragmede 1y ago
        > Demos, betas, and trial versions of your app don’t belong on the App Store – use TestFlight instead. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#beta-testing https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#bet...
  - yojo 1y ago
    The HN crowd is touchy on some topics. Don’t take it too personally - good on you for building something cool and shipping it. FWIW my favorite non-predatory pattern is a level-limited free version with a single “unlock full game” IAP. That way users don’t have to lose their progress switching to paid.
    - skeeter2020 1y ago
      This is just an optimized version of shareware, now that we don't need to mail in a cheque to get the full set of floppies. seems self-defeating to reference anything like "in app purchase" for what's jsut a path for an immediate update after the user completes a known subset of levels.
- stronglikedan 1y ago
  yes, absolutely. options are always the right thing. nothing wrong with "targeting kids with in app purchases" if you're up front about it
xandrius 1y ago
Show them X free levels and with free hints. When they get into the groove, at X+1 level show them "Did you like this? You can get 200+ levels if you convince your parents that this is a worthwhile investment for your learning." (copy TBD) and bam, you have a traditional game with a demo and a way to buy it that doesn't train kids to expect in-app purchases for every breath they take. And btw, $25 is high even for an indie steam game, a mobile game will be even harder to market at that price. Just FYI. Best of luck!
figassis 1y ago
Thank you. I am always willing to pay a premium for kids apps that don't have any dark patterns, subscription crap or in app purchases. It's sad that the market has been so corrupted that now customers are asked to pay a premium to keep kids safe and sane.
- twostraws 1y ago
  You'll be pleased to know that the app is not only a one-time payment, but also has zero tracking – no analytics, no logging, no adverts, and no data collection of any kind.
  - xandrius 1y ago
    Can I see the source code? Else it's just words :/
    - twostraws 1y ago
      Source code wouldn't help, because there's no way to verify any code I showed would be the same as the version on the App Store. Fortunately, you can just watch the network packets leaving from your device when you run the app, and you'll see literally nothing coming to me.

TimByte 1y ago

Yep, in-app purchases aimed at kids is always a sensitive area

Tade0 1y ago
"sensitive" undersells it. Apple in its refund form has an option to select "unauthorised in-app purchase by a minor" as the reason. I was not aware how predatory this market has become until an annual subscription after a "one week trial" renewed itself automatically despite having been already cancelled on the last day. I'm assuming the money is lost because third party subscriptions might require earlier cancellation, but that was the last time I allowed for anything with such a short trial period.

jrm4 1y ago

I dig it; and if the kids figure out how to get what they want WITHOUT paying for a damn thing, EVEN BETTER.

Fokamul 1y ago

Hmm, meanwhile you have whole gaming platforms like Steam, where they basically make huge profit from gambling in games like Counter-strike and others. And hmm whose playing those games?

ChicagoBoy11 1y ago
In defense of the parent comment, I don't know that he suggested that it wasn't effective, but it is a dark pattern that probably should be avoided if the gist of the effort is to truly be an educational game that you'd want to enthusiastically support.
doublepg23 1y ago
Aren't most micro-transactions like those purely cosmetic?
- gmueckl 1y ago
  They are in Valve's own games. But items drop at different rates, which creates artificial scarciry and items can also be traded for money.
- giobox 1y ago
  Yes for Valve, but that hasn't stopped a secondary market transacting tens of thousands of dollars or more for them in some cases. > https://dmarket.com/blog/most-expensive-csgo-skins https://dmarket.com/blog/most-expensive-csgo-skins > https://tradeit.gg/csgo/store https://tradeit.gg/csgo/store
sieabahlpark 1y ago
[dead]
xandrius 1y ago
But the makers of CS don't go around telling their game is targeted at kids. And that's another topic, plus this is part of the gameplay, not just some cosmetic stuff.

krackers 1y ago

That's just part of the meta-game, to get kids to jailbreak the iphone and then patch the IPA

BobbyTables2 1y ago

What you describe is practically every Roblox game out there… (yeah it’s horrible )