3 ms·

I'm struggling to come to terms with the depth of anti-modernity sentiment in the West, that it's considered normal (and not mortifying) to read a BBC piece pra

I'm struggling to come to terms with the depth of anti-modernity sentiment in the West, that it's considered normal (and not mortifying) to read a BBC piece praising a twenty-hour rail journey as a thing of "lyrical beauty", quoting authorities like a "philosophy researcher". Who elevated this flowery nonsense over the common sense of the masses of sane people, with lives and goals and needs and places to be?

n4r9 1y ago
Is continuous hurry your ideal state of civilization?
- lukan 1y ago
  Is spending life time in a train your goal? I like trains. To get quickly, safe and comfortable from A to B. Changing to a ferry is ... what I would consider a one time experience, but I rather would have the option to go by fast train straight to sicily whenever I feel like. As of now, flying remains way cheaper, despite being worse ecological. But this won't change like that.
  - Xylakant 1y ago
    The time you spend on a night trains is spent sleeping. They deliberately don’t run full pace - no one wants to arrive at 5 in the morning. So they slow-roll on a long stretch to make arrival times reasonable. Very often you can make an earlier arrival at a destination via night train than you can via plane - unless you fly in the evening before.
    - lukan 1y ago
      There are often distances I like to travel, far longer than one night. I really don't see the point in making it harder on purpose. There are plenty of places where getting there is an adventure. I like adventures. But not when just visiting family or alike.
      - Xylakant 1y ago
        Nobody is making anything harder on purpose. You can take a plane. But for a lot of European distances, night trains are perfectly good. I would love if they’d resurrect the night train that went to my parents place - I would board it on Friday 10pm to go home, be there Saturday for breakfast, board the train back at midnight on Sunday and roll into the Berlin main station in time to make it to work. Not a single lost minute for the trip, maximize time at the destination.
        lukan 1y ago
        "You can take a plane." I know. But my ecological consciousness has a problem with that. So yes, I also like night trains. And I also like bridges in general for better connection. I did not run the numbers to see if it makes sense here or just for the Mafiosi (I heard that complaint a lot). I am arguing against the romanticed point above, keeping the ferry because some think it is romantic.
    - ac29 1y ago
      > The time you spend on a night trains is spent sleeping. Have you ever been on a night train? I love train travel but night trains are rough since I find it very difficult to sleep. But, I cant really sleep on planes either.
      - Xylakant 1y ago
        Yes, I have. As I wrote in the sibling comments the last time just a week ago, the actual train that’s being discussed here. I’ll be again on Friday, for the return. I’ve taken multiple other night train connections before and in my experience, the quality depends to a large extend on the operator and the rolling stock. Older stock makes for less comfort, especially if not well maintained. In my experience sleeping on the train also takes a bit of getting used to. Then again, maybe it’s really not for you - that’s ok.
blitzar 1y ago
"These people" just dont have the same grindset as you sadly. They will never know the joy of a 4am ice water facial followed by 21 hours of grinding before 3 hours of sleep before another 4am ice water facial.
- perihelions 1y ago
  "I'd prefer to spend time with my family at the end of this rail journey rather than spend that time contemplating the history-rich aesthetics of the rail carriage" isn't a "grindset". Transport is a *tool* for most people—a means, not an end, as it is for a tiny subset of travel reporters (overrepresented in print). It dehumanizes people to delegitimatize their subjective valuation of their own lives' priorities. Wanting to go fast, deprioritizing transport as a mere tool, doesn't make them defective people. High-speed rail is an awesome thing and it weirds me out to have been shamed and mocked for advocating for it.
  - n4r9 1y ago
    Please consider that your original post could also be seen as shaming people who appreciate the beauty of train journeys. Some of the best quality time I've spent with my son has been during train journeys. Like many two-year olds he loves the whole experience. Watching out of the window while the train is moved onto a ferry would blow his mind. I agree that high-speed trains are marvellous; I'm sad that their introduction deprives us of some rich cultural experiences.
Xylakant 1y ago
We just took the train to get from Berlin to Sicily for our holiday and will take it back on Sunday. There’s no one forcing you to take the train - there’s plenty of airports around here. But night trains are - at least for some - a great way to travel. You boards the train a 8pm in Milano, and by the time you had breakfast, you’re almost in Messina. Now, I wish that they’d refurbish the rolling stock and make the train run faster on the last legs, but that’s fundamentally a maintenance and upkeep issue. The technology is perfectly fine.
- p1anecrazy 1y ago
  Please share the details of the journey
  - jmchisel 1y ago
    Not the parent but took this train (Rome -> Palermo) in 2019 and had a middling experience. Based on previous excellent night train experiences (in France) I'd recommended the sleeper train as a great way to get our family down to Sicily. With 3- and 6-year-olds the idea of travelling while sleeping had much appeal. Unfortunately I should have factored Trenitalia (Italian train operator) into the mix. The train departed an hour late - not such a big deal you'd think for an overnight sleeper train - but it arrived late at Roma Centrale so we couldn't board it and get comfortable. Two small kids at 10pm on a train platform in a big city is not much fun. The sleeper car was tired, but clean enough. Unfortunately, we'd been mis-advised and there were no buffet/restaurant facilities on the train. We'd assumed that breakfast (either delivered or in said car) was provided, and all we had were a few snacks. Once the train started moving, the gentle rock-you-to-sleep I remembered from previous night trains was notably absent; rather it was a violent side-to-side pitching that increased concerningly when the train got up to full speed. As the bunks in our compartment were transverse to the direction of travel, in my upper bunk this ended up feeling like lying on a see-saw. Unsettling accompanying grinding noises pointed to a lack of maintenance, and sure enough, at ARGH o'clock, a frantic banging on the compartment door and some italo-english gesturing from a Trenitalia attendant made it clear that we were being ejected from our broken car. We had to pack up all our stuff which we'd exploded all over the compartment, plus wake up two sleeping kids, and pajama-clad, move onto the 3am platform of Who-knows-where while new compartments were found for all the unlucky residents of our little cocktail-shaker. Our new digs were much more stable and the overnight ferry crossing passed so smoothly that none of us even woke for more than a second or two when there were some bumps and clanks. I second the request for more speed on the Sicily side though; when you've got a hungry family with no breakfast available, you just wanna get there ASAP. Pretty nice scenery though. Needless to say we demolished everything we could find at Palermo station on arrival though!
rafram 1y ago
As the article states, they’re planning to build a bridge. You can have an efficient option and a scenic/nostalgic option on the same route. This is just a bit of sentimentality about a cool train journey that might be replaced, not “anti-modernity sentiment.”

n4r9 1y ago

Is continuous hurry your ideal state of civilization?

lukan 1y ago
Is spending life time in a train your goal? I like trains. To get quickly, safe and comfortable from A to B. Changing to a ferry is ... what I would consider a one time experience, but I rather would have the option to go by fast train straight to sicily whenever I feel like. As of now, flying remains way cheaper, despite being worse ecological. But this won't change like that.
- Xylakant 1y ago
  The time you spend on a night trains is spent sleeping. They deliberately don’t run full pace - no one wants to arrive at 5 in the morning. So they slow-roll on a long stretch to make arrival times reasonable. Very often you can make an earlier arrival at a destination via night train than you can via plane - unless you fly in the evening before.
  - lukan 1y ago
    There are often distances I like to travel, far longer than one night. I really don't see the point in making it harder on purpose. There are plenty of places where getting there is an adventure. I like adventures. But not when just visiting family or alike.
    - Xylakant 1y ago
      Nobody is making anything harder on purpose. You can take a plane. But for a lot of European distances, night trains are perfectly good. I would love if they’d resurrect the night train that went to my parents place - I would board it on Friday 10pm to go home, be there Saturday for breakfast, board the train back at midnight on Sunday and roll into the Berlin main station in time to make it to work. Not a single lost minute for the trip, maximize time at the destination.
      - lukan 1y ago
        "You can take a plane." I know. But my ecological consciousness has a problem with that. So yes, I also like night trains. And I also like bridges in general for better connection. I did not run the numbers to see if it makes sense here or just for the Mafiosi (I heard that complaint a lot). I am arguing against the romanticed point above, keeping the ferry because some think it is romantic.
  - ac29 1y ago
    > The time you spend on a night trains is spent sleeping. Have you ever been on a night train? I love train travel but night trains are rough since I find it very difficult to sleep. But, I cant really sleep on planes either.
    - Xylakant 1y ago
      Yes, I have. As I wrote in the sibling comments the last time just a week ago, the actual train that’s being discussed here. I’ll be again on Friday, for the return. I’ve taken multiple other night train connections before and in my experience, the quality depends to a large extend on the operator and the rolling stock. Older stock makes for less comfort, especially if not well maintained. In my experience sleeping on the train also takes a bit of getting used to. Then again, maybe it’s really not for you - that’s ok.

blitzar 1y ago

"These people" just dont have the same grindset as you sadly. They will never know the joy of a 4am ice water facial followed by 21 hours of grinding before 3 hours of sleep before another 4am ice water facial.

perihelions 1y ago
"I'd prefer to spend time with my family at the end of this rail journey rather than spend that time contemplating the history-rich aesthetics of the rail carriage" isn't a "grindset". Transport is a *tool* for most people—a means, not an end, as it is for a tiny subset of travel reporters (overrepresented in print). It dehumanizes people to delegitimatize their subjective valuation of their own lives' priorities. Wanting to go fast, deprioritizing transport as a mere tool, doesn't make them defective people. High-speed rail is an awesome thing and it weirds me out to have been shamed and mocked for advocating for it.
- n4r9 1y ago
  Please consider that your original post could also be seen as shaming people who appreciate the beauty of train journeys. Some of the best quality time I've spent with my son has been during train journeys. Like many two-year olds he loves the whole experience. Watching out of the window while the train is moved onto a ferry would blow his mind. I agree that high-speed trains are marvellous; I'm sad that their introduction deprives us of some rich cultural experiences.

Xylakant 1y ago

We just took the train to get from Berlin to Sicily for our holiday and will take it back on Sunday. There’s no one forcing you to take the train - there’s plenty of airports around here. But night trains are - at least for some - a great way to travel. You boards the train a 8pm in Milano, and by the time you had breakfast, you’re almost in Messina. Now, I wish that they’d refurbish the rolling stock and make the train run faster on the last legs, but that’s fundamentally a maintenance and upkeep issue. The technology is perfectly fine.

p1anecrazy 1y ago
Please share the details of the journey
- jmchisel 1y ago
  Not the parent but took this train (Rome -> Palermo) in 2019 and had a middling experience. Based on previous excellent night train experiences (in France) I'd recommended the sleeper train as a great way to get our family down to Sicily. With 3- and 6-year-olds the idea of travelling while sleeping had much appeal. Unfortunately I should have factored Trenitalia (Italian train operator) into the mix. The train departed an hour late - not such a big deal you'd think for an overnight sleeper train - but it arrived late at Roma Centrale so we couldn't board it and get comfortable. Two small kids at 10pm on a train platform in a big city is not much fun. The sleeper car was tired, but clean enough. Unfortunately, we'd been mis-advised and there were no buffet/restaurant facilities on the train. We'd assumed that breakfast (either delivered or in said car) was provided, and all we had were a few snacks. Once the train started moving, the gentle rock-you-to-sleep I remembered from previous night trains was notably absent; rather it was a violent side-to-side pitching that increased concerningly when the train got up to full speed. As the bunks in our compartment were transverse to the direction of travel, in my upper bunk this ended up feeling like lying on a see-saw. Unsettling accompanying grinding noises pointed to a lack of maintenance, and sure enough, at ARGH o'clock, a frantic banging on the compartment door and some italo-english gesturing from a Trenitalia attendant made it clear that we were being ejected from our broken car. We had to pack up all our stuff which we'd exploded all over the compartment, plus wake up two sleeping kids, and pajama-clad, move onto the 3am platform of Who-knows-where while new compartments were found for all the unlucky residents of our little cocktail-shaker. Our new digs were much more stable and the overnight ferry crossing passed so smoothly that none of us even woke for more than a second or two when there were some bumps and clanks. I second the request for more speed on the Sicily side though; when you've got a hungry family with no breakfast available, you just wanna get there ASAP. Pretty nice scenery though. Needless to say we demolished everything we could find at Palermo station on arrival though!

rafram 1y ago

As the article states, they’re planning to build a bridge. You can have an efficient option and a scenic/nostalgic option on the same route. This is just a bit of sentimentality about a cool train journey that might be replaced, not “anti-modernity sentiment.”