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>Additionally, by not getting a vaccine, you potentially put people at risk who cannot get a vaccine -- immunocompromised folks, etc. Vaccinating your child als

by trhway 1y ago

>Additionally, by not getting a vaccine, you potentially put people at risk who cannot get a vaccine -- immunocompromised folks, etc. Vaccinating your child also protects everyone in their communities. No. You probably thinking some other vaccine and infection, not covid. For covid once infected, vaccinated people express similar number of virus in their saliva as unvaccinated (see for example [1]). Additionally, infected vaccinated people have lower intensity symptoms or now symptoms at all, and thus more likely to go about their business as usual (and thus spread the virus) than to stay home like unvaccinated. As a result the vaccinated people do possibly spread more infection than unvaccinated. The obviously propagandistic and using government force push "do it for the good of the community" (very USSR style) for covid vaccinations against the science - as those results were already known at the end of 2021 - drove a lot of new people into vaccine-sceptic crowd. [1] https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-sim... "new study from the University of California, Davis, Genome Center, UC San Francisco and the Chan Zuckerberg Biohub shows no significant difference in viral load between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who tested positive for the delta variant of SARS-CoV-2. It also found no significant difference between infected people with or without symptoms. ... Although vaccinated people with a breakthrough infection are much less likely to become severely ill than unvaccinated, the new study shows that they can be carrying similar amounts of virus and could potentially spread the virus to other people."

croon 1y ago
> For covid once infected ... and thus more likely to go about their business as usual (and thus spread the virus) than to stay home like unvaccinated. > As a result the vaccinated people do possibly spread more infection than unvaccinated. You are using a subset of the groups to argue around the entire groups. If the entire (much larger) group of vaccinated got infected at a rate of unvaccinated, your argument would hold, but they don't and it doesn't.
- trhway 1y ago
  >If the entire (much larger) group of vaccinated got infected at a rate of unvaccinated, your argument would hold, but they don't and it doesn't. they do. Covid vaccine doesn't significantly decrease infection rate [1] (that, if you think a bit about how immune system works and how covid infects, in particular is why viral load is the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated). The vaccine only softens, a lot, the symptoms. Thus widely vaccinating healthy people, we do increase threat to immunosuppressed and the likes. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinat... "The results suggest even those who are fully vaccinated have a sizeable risk of becoming infected, with analysis revealing a fully vaccinated contact has a 25% chance of catching the virus from an infected household member while an unvaccinated contact has a 38% chance of becoming infected." [2] https://news.northeastern.edu/2023/11/02/covid-flu-vaccine-efficacy/ https://news.northeastern.edu/2023/11/02/covid-flu-vaccine-e... "Why do some vaccines (polio, measles) prevent diseases, while others (COVID-19, flu) only reduce their severity?"
  - croon 1y ago
    > they do. Covid vaccine doesn't significantly decrease infection rate [1] (that, if you think a bit about how immune system works and how covid infects, in particular is why viral load is the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated). The vaccine only softens, a lot, the symptoms. No they don't. > "The results suggest even those who are fully vaccinated have a sizeable risk of becoming infected, with analysis revealing a fully vaccinated contact has a 25% chance of catching the virus from an infected household member while an unvaccinated contact has a 38% chance of becoming infected." A couple of points here: 1) 25% vs 38% is an enormous difference in compounding risk of transmission across populations. 2) Accepting the premise that viral load at peak is the same, multiple studies still show that vaccinations reduce duration of shedding and transmissibility. [1] > Thus widely vaccinating healthy people, we do increase threat to immunosuppressed and the likes. This is simply wrong based on above in both first and second order effects. On top of that, having fewer/less severe reactions in otherwise healthy people leaves more healthcare resources for immunosuppressed. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9499220/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9499220/ https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.10.22269010v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.10.22269010v... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/monitoring-reports-of-the-effectiveness-of-covid-19-vaccination https://www.gov.uk/guidance/monitoring-reports-of-the-effect... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8992250/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8992250/

by trhway 1y ago

croon 1y ago

> For covid once infected ... and thus more likely to go about their business as usual (and thus spread the virus) than to stay home like unvaccinated. > As a result the vaccinated people do possibly spread more infection than unvaccinated. You are using a subset of the groups to argue around the entire groups. If the entire (much larger) group of vaccinated got infected at a rate of unvaccinated, your argument would hold, but they don't and it doesn't.

trhway 1y ago
>If the entire (much larger) group of vaccinated got infected at a rate of unvaccinated, your argument would hold, but they don't and it doesn't. they do. Covid vaccine doesn't significantly decrease infection rate [1] (that, if you think a bit about how immune system works and how covid infects, in particular is why viral load is the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated). The vaccine only softens, a lot, the symptoms. Thus widely vaccinating healthy people, we do increase threat to immunosuppressed and the likes. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinat... "The results suggest even those who are fully vaccinated have a sizeable risk of becoming infected, with analysis revealing a fully vaccinated contact has a 25% chance of catching the virus from an infected household member while an unvaccinated contact has a 38% chance of becoming infected." [2] https://news.northeastern.edu/2023/11/02/covid-flu-vaccine-efficacy/ https://news.northeastern.edu/2023/11/02/covid-flu-vaccine-e... "Why do some vaccines (polio, measles) prevent diseases, while others (COVID-19, flu) only reduce their severity?"
- croon 1y ago
  > they do. Covid vaccine doesn't significantly decrease infection rate [1] (that, if you think a bit about how immune system works and how covid infects, in particular is why viral load is the same in vaccinated and unvaccinated). The vaccine only softens, a lot, the symptoms. No they don't. > "The results suggest even those who are fully vaccinated have a sizeable risk of becoming infected, with analysis revealing a fully vaccinated contact has a 25% chance of catching the virus from an infected household member while an unvaccinated contact has a 38% chance of becoming infected." A couple of points here: 1) 25% vs 38% is an enormous difference in compounding risk of transmission across populations. 2) Accepting the premise that viral load at peak is the same, multiple studies still show that vaccinations reduce duration of shedding and transmissibility. [1] > Thus widely vaccinating healthy people, we do increase threat to immunosuppressed and the likes. This is simply wrong based on above in both first and second order effects. On top of that, having fewer/less severe reactions in otherwise healthy people leaves more healthcare resources for immunosuppressed. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9499220/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9499220/ https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.10.22269010v1.full https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.10.22269010v... https://www.gov.uk/guidance/monitoring-reports-of-the-effectiveness-of-covid-19-vaccination https://www.gov.uk/guidance/monitoring-reports-of-the-effect... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8992250/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8992250/