4 ms·

Does NetBSD really help reduce e-waste any more than Linux already does?

by xyproto 1y ago

atomic_princess 1y ago
[flagged]
- rfrey 1y ago
  I think they were talking about physical computers ending up in landfills. Edit: nvmd, I see this account was created 20 minutes ago and has only low-effort comments attacking BSD. I've never understood how people can develop such negative feelings about technologies.
- jamesnorden 1y ago
  That's not what e-waste means.
xhkkffbf 1y ago
Some of the Linux distros are getting pretty fat and don't work so well on older hardware. Of course some are lean too. But NetBSD has a goal.
- xyproto 1y ago
  Lean Linux distros also have goals?
unleaded 1y ago
Maybe not yet but I can see Linux's place as the shitbox saviour start slipping a bit in the next few years. Debian dropping x86, distros getting fatter in general.. I can't really see those trends reversing. Meanwhile NetBSD goes against them. However it goes, the main issue is one no operating system can solve which is modern life relying on the Web and beefier browsers. Unless you want to rebel against that you're probably better off getting a laptop from the past 10 years for < £100 on eBay.
- dijit 1y ago
  How is TLS negotiation and transport on older hardware (with no AES-NI hardware acceleration)? I remember it used to be expensive as heck to do TLS back in 2014~, so much so that we bought accelerator cards and segmented "secure" servers so that load wouldn't hit the ordinary browsing of our sites...
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
    "How is TLS negotiation and transport on older hardware (with no AES-NI hardware acceleration)?" I use a TLS forward proxy. With today's overpowered hardware, I can even run the proxy on an old "phone" (but I cant run NetBSD^1) This allows the older computers I own to use plaintext HTTP like the good old days 1. Despite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_Sidekick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_Sidekick
- Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
  Although I agree with beefier browsers, I also want to say that there are browsers like dillo etc. which can be good enough for simple websites and also not everything needs a web browser to be usable Imagine this, a system which can watch movies, edit texts, create disks, have curl/wget, send and recieve files using piping server (which is a curl thing) , view pdfs, mpv and what not, a desktop manager, file manager etc. As someone hacking around with the legendary tiny core linux, I am more and more mind blown each day with just how much can happen in 14-21 MB, you can definitely build a mini self hosting rack with just some remastering as tinycore can actually run podman as well (combine this with alpine containers to create a super duper minimalist self hosting things too) the possibilities are endless. When I ran tiny core linux on my pc and ran nothing else, It took 21 mb in ram for a whole gui with editors and file managers etc. all running in ram so super fast filesystem with a package manager I personally wanted to build my own operating system to limit myself to the most minimal system so taht I just study and do nothing else, I thought tiny core was it but then I tried to hack around it and there are sooooo many things in 21 mb, makes me appreciate minimalism
  - dijit 1y ago
p_ing 1y ago
The argument for NetBSD is that it runs on almost anything that was ever produced. That isn't the case for Linux, even older x86 is no longer supported in the mainline.
- jmmv 1y ago
  That may be technically true but… Linux (the kernel) may have been ported to more machines and architectures than NetBSD’s kernel, yes. But is all the code present in the same source tree or do you have to go find patch sets or unofficial branches? More importantly: is there a modern distribution that builds an installable system for that platform? The special thing about NetBSD is that you get the portability out of a single and modern tree for many more platforms than any single Linux distribution offers.
  - p_ing 1y ago
    You said the same thing I did with extra steps.
    - jmmv 1y ago
      That’s because… I misread your comment. In any case, NetBSD is not well known and “why bother because Linux also runs everywhere too” so I thought it was worth explaining.
      - p_ing 1y ago
        Sadly the BSDs are not well known. I asked a major employer why they're using Linux + Apache for an RP when OpenBSD + HAProxy + CARP is a significantly better option. Crickets. I want a good laptop for OpenBSD (or FreeBSD, at the least) that isn't 10 years old or weighs 5+ lbs.
  - pabs3 1y ago
    The Linux ecosystem is removing support for lots of stuff, especially the distros, but also the kernel.
kakwa_ 1y ago
https://technically.kakwalab.ovh/posts/silly-sun-server-intro/#the-software-side https://technically.kakwalab.ovh/posts/silly-sun-server-intr... Some architectures are no longer practical with Linux. The kernel might still support it, but distribution support is sketchy. For a SPARC64 server refurb project, the choices were pretty much OpenBSD or NetBSD in my case.
- pabs3 1y ago
  Debian still has a sparc64 port (sid only).
iberator 1y ago
yes. It supports like 60 different cpu architecture all back to 1979 VAX 790 INCLUDED. Its also one of few OSes where 32-bit 386 is still tier 1 release. All from single code source code tree.
- xyproto 1y ago
  Does running NetBSD on VAX from 1979 help to reduce e-waste, though?
  - iberator 1y ago
    Yes if you still run it. 0 metal wasted.
ptrwis 1y ago
What do you think, there are milions of people or companies running NetBSD on 486 to protect the planet from e-waste? How many times have you replaced your phone with a newer model in the last 10 years?
- timeon 1y ago
  > How many times have you replaced your phone with a newer model in the last 10 years Once, after accident.

Does NetBSD really help reduce e-waste any more than Linux already does?

atomic_princess 1y ago

[flagged]

rfrey 1y ago
I think they were talking about physical computers ending up in landfills. Edit: nvmd, I see this account was created 20 minutes ago and has only low-effort comments attacking BSD. I've never understood how people can develop such negative feelings about technologies.
jamesnorden 1y ago
That's not what e-waste means.

xhkkffbf 1y ago

Some of the Linux distros are getting pretty fat and don't work so well on older hardware. Of course some are lean too. But NetBSD has a goal.

xyproto 1y ago
Lean Linux distros also have goals?

unleaded 1y ago

Maybe not yet but I can see Linux's place as the shitbox saviour start slipping a bit in the next few years. Debian dropping x86, distros getting fatter in general.. I can't really see those trends reversing. Meanwhile NetBSD goes against them. However it goes, the main issue is one no operating system can solve which is modern life relying on the Web and beefier browsers. Unless you want to rebel against that you're probably better off getting a laptop from the past 10 years for < £100 on eBay.

dijit 1y ago
How is TLS negotiation and transport on older hardware (with no AES-NI hardware acceleration)? I remember it used to be expensive as heck to do TLS back in 2014~, so much so that we bought accelerator cards and segmented "secure" servers so that load wouldn't hit the ordinary browsing of our sites...
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 1y ago
  "How is TLS negotiation and transport on older hardware (with no AES-NI hardware acceleration)?" I use a TLS forward proxy. With today's overpowered hardware, I can even run the proxy on an old "phone" (but I cant run NetBSD^1) This allows the older computers I own to use plaintext HTTP like the good old days 1. Despite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_Sidekick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-Mobile_Sidekick
Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
Although I agree with beefier browsers, I also want to say that there are browsers like dillo etc. which can be good enough for simple websites and also not everything needs a web browser to be usable Imagine this, a system which can watch movies, edit texts, create disks, have curl/wget, send and recieve files using piping server (which is a curl thing) , view pdfs, mpv and what not, a desktop manager, file manager etc. As someone hacking around with the legendary tiny core linux, I am more and more mind blown each day with just how much can happen in 14-21 MB, you can definitely build a mini self hosting rack with just some remastering as tinycore can actually run podman as well (combine this with alpine containers to create a super duper minimalist self hosting things too) the possibilities are endless. When I ran tiny core linux on my pc and ran nothing else, It took 21 mb in ram for a whole gui with editors and file managers etc. all running in ram so super fast filesystem with a package manager I personally wanted to build my own operating system to limit myself to the most minimal system so taht I just study and do nothing else, I thought tiny core was it but then I tried to hack around it and there are sooooo many things in 21 mb, makes me appreciate minimalism
- dijit 1y ago

p_ing 1y ago

The argument for NetBSD is that it runs on almost anything that was ever produced. That isn't the case for Linux, even older x86 is no longer supported in the mainline.

jmmv 1y ago
That may be technically true but… Linux (the kernel) may have been ported to more machines and architectures than NetBSD’s kernel, yes. But is all the code present in the same source tree or do you have to go find patch sets or unofficial branches? More importantly: is there a modern distribution that builds an installable system for that platform? The special thing about NetBSD is that you get the portability out of a single and modern tree for many more platforms than any single Linux distribution offers.
- p_ing 1y ago
  You said the same thing I did with extra steps.
  - jmmv 1y ago
    That’s because… I misread your comment. In any case, NetBSD is not well known and “why bother because Linux also runs everywhere too” so I thought it was worth explaining.
    - p_ing 1y ago
      Sadly the BSDs are not well known. I asked a major employer why they're using Linux + Apache for an RP when OpenBSD + HAProxy + CARP is a significantly better option. Crickets. I want a good laptop for OpenBSD (or FreeBSD, at the least) that isn't 10 years old or weighs 5+ lbs.
- pabs3 1y ago
  The Linux ecosystem is removing support for lots of stuff, especially the distros, but also the kernel.

kakwa_ 1y ago

https://technically.kakwalab.ovh/posts/silly-sun-server-intro/#the-software-side https://technically.kakwalab.ovh/posts/silly-sun-server-intr... Some architectures are no longer practical with Linux. The kernel might still support it, but distribution support is sketchy. For a SPARC64 server refurb project, the choices were pretty much OpenBSD or NetBSD in my case.

pabs3 1y ago
Debian still has a sparc64 port (sid only).

iberator 1y ago

yes. It supports like 60 different cpu architecture all back to 1979 VAX 790 INCLUDED. Its also one of few OSes where 32-bit 386 is still tier 1 release. All from single code source code tree.

xyproto 1y ago
Does running NetBSD on VAX from 1979 help to reduce e-waste, though?
- iberator 1y ago
  Yes if you still run it. 0 metal wasted.

ptrwis 1y ago

What do you think, there are milions of people or companies running NetBSD on 486 to protect the planet from e-waste? How many times have you replaced your phone with a newer model in the last 10 years?

timeon 1y ago
> How many times have you replaced your phone with a newer model in the last 10 years Once, after accident.