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> It’s actually quite shocking to leave the U.S. and experience the drastic fall in respect. My only vantage point is from inside the U.S., but I find the loss

> It’s actually quite shocking to leave the U.S. and experience the drastic fall in respect. My only vantage point is from inside the U.S., but I find the loss of prestige completely believable. What amazed me was discovering that my own countrymen would vote in, and continue to support, someone like Trump. My political views are pretty centrist, and I thought I understood the views of most liberals and conservatives. But I never thought there would be so little resistance to the lies, corruption, authoritarianism, and the breakdown of the separation of powers. And the simple incompetence w.r.t. running the executive branch. It's like my mental framework has no way to model whatever is going on here.

estearum 1y ago
Try on the "it's a cult" model. It explains pretty much everything. This has almost nothing to do with politics or policy or even economics. It's a cult around Trump and then a (quite diverse) set of politically/culturally/economically-motivated opportunists surrounding him and trying to leverage the Donald's cult-building magic into whatever future United States they dream of. Whoever speaks to him most recently before he steps in front of a microphone gets policy priority for the next media cycle!
SlightlyLeftPad 1y ago
Well, we could be amazed although you seem to be jumping past another, more controversial yet still equally possible conclusion which is that our elections aren’t as pure as we’d all like to believe. Certainly, I’m not here to spread conspiracy and I agree with you here, the results are the only evidence we have of the current situation. Given that, I think many of us were amazed.
- 1oooqooq 1y ago
  did you ever try (barelly a research, im not even asking if you got up from your chair) to know about joining a party or participating in voting counts?
  - SlightlyLeftPad 1y ago
    Sigh…I’m NOT referring to the popular voter fraud case here. My point has more to do with gerrymandering and a variety of strategic and tactical choices by the two parties to sway elections. Manipulation of Social and mainstream media for instance. When you think about it even a little but beyond the vitriol, it makes sense.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  Are you saying that, under the Biden administration, there was voter fraud that threw the election to Trump? If so, given that the Biden administration would have every reason to try to prevent that, I'd like to see your evidence. If you aren't, then what exactly are you saying?
  - woooooo 1y ago
    There's no significant evidence of fraud, but the states run elections. Feds just tally the electors. Biden admin wasn't closely involved either way.
brailsafe 1y ago
> My political views are pretty centrist, and I thought I understood the views of most liberals and conservatives. I think that effect comes from astroturfing, algorithms, and tribalism. The only way imo that a person gets any kind of genuine small sample of the varying vibes outside their circle is to speak with randoms in different geographic regions with a sense of humility, curiosity, and friendliness, in real life.
- brailsafe 1y ago
  I'd add that I'm not assuming the person I was replying to doesn't do this, just that it's my hunch in a general sense that people basically stick to their circles and don't realize how differently people see the world outside it and why, because only the most emotionally charged, opposing, or niche topics make their way across someone's radar unless they speak to those people in real life. People are broadly much more alike than they are different, and the reasons they're different come down to familial, regional, or circumstantial variation that aren't as much of a barrier to forming common bonds as the internet or media would have us believe. That's also not to say that there aren't insurmountable differences like economic class that influence outcomes in a major way.
Tiktaalik 1y ago
This is what happens in a FPTP two party system. If you don't like one party what other option do you have but to vote for the other party? So as a result it's enormously easy for radicals to take over a big tent party and still achieve remarkable support.
- M95D 1y ago
  Bernie was a 3rd option. Very few voted for him.
  - marpstar 1y ago
    The enthusiasm around Bernie in 2016 was palpable. The DNC took it from him.
    - KerrAvon 1y ago
      This is true. Anecdata, but I talked to some of the “Republicans for Bernie” back then, and it was real, not astroturf. We’d be in a different place if Bernie had been the Dem candidate in 2016. I think it’s likely Bernie’s actual presidency would have been a major shitshow that made Jimmy Carter’s look pretty solid, but it would have relegated Trump to what he originally wanted to be, a fringe political figure grifting millions from gullible conservatives. (I also think Bernie could not have won in 2020.)
      - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
        But in that scenario, the Republicans would not have run Trump a second time (and maybe not even the first, because all the populist action would have gone to Bernie). So Bernie would lose in 2020 to a normal (that is, not populist) Republican.
  - KerrAvon 1y ago
    Bernie was never a 3rd option, to be clear. He wasn’t running a Ross Perot-style third party campaign, he was running to be at the top of the Democratic ticket. And when the DNC cleared the way for Hillary, he was out of the game.
csomar 1y ago
> It's like my mental framework has no way to model whatever is going on here. It is historically in line with the U.S.A. The last few decades were the exception.

estearum 1y ago

Try on the "it's a cult" model. It explains pretty much everything. This has almost nothing to do with politics or policy or even economics. It's a cult around Trump and then a (quite diverse) set of politically/culturally/economically-motivated opportunists surrounding him and trying to leverage the Donald's cult-building magic into whatever future United States they dream of. Whoever speaks to him most recently before he steps in front of a microphone gets policy priority for the next media cycle!

SlightlyLeftPad 1y ago

Well, we could be amazed although you seem to be jumping past another, more controversial yet still equally possible conclusion which is that our elections aren’t as pure as we’d all like to believe. Certainly, I’m not here to spread conspiracy and I agree with you here, the results are the only evidence we have of the current situation. Given that, I think many of us were amazed.

1oooqooq 1y ago
did you ever try (barelly a research, im not even asking if you got up from your chair) to know about joining a party or participating in voting counts?
- SlightlyLeftPad 1y ago
  Sigh…I’m NOT referring to the popular voter fraud case here. My point has more to do with gerrymandering and a variety of strategic and tactical choices by the two parties to sway elections. Manipulation of Social and mainstream media for instance. When you think about it even a little but beyond the vitriol, it makes sense.
AnimalMuppet 1y ago
Are you saying that, under the Biden administration, there was voter fraud that threw the election to Trump? If so, given that the Biden administration would have every reason to try to prevent that, I'd like to see your evidence. If you aren't, then what exactly are you saying?
- woooooo 1y ago
  There's no significant evidence of fraud, but the states run elections. Feds just tally the electors. Biden admin wasn't closely involved either way.

brailsafe 1y ago

> My political views are pretty centrist, and I thought I understood the views of most liberals and conservatives. I think that effect comes from astroturfing, algorithms, and tribalism. The only way imo that a person gets any kind of genuine small sample of the varying vibes outside their circle is to speak with randoms in different geographic regions with a sense of humility, curiosity, and friendliness, in real life.

brailsafe 1y ago
I'd add that I'm not assuming the person I was replying to doesn't do this, just that it's my hunch in a general sense that people basically stick to their circles and don't realize how differently people see the world outside it and why, because only the most emotionally charged, opposing, or niche topics make their way across someone's radar unless they speak to those people in real life. People are broadly much more alike than they are different, and the reasons they're different come down to familial, regional, or circumstantial variation that aren't as much of a barrier to forming common bonds as the internet or media would have us believe. That's also not to say that there aren't insurmountable differences like economic class that influence outcomes in a major way.

Tiktaalik 1y ago

This is what happens in a FPTP two party system. If you don't like one party what other option do you have but to vote for the other party? So as a result it's enormously easy for radicals to take over a big tent party and still achieve remarkable support.

M95D 1y ago
Bernie was a 3rd option. Very few voted for him.
- marpstar 1y ago
  The enthusiasm around Bernie in 2016 was palpable. The DNC took it from him.
  - KerrAvon 1y ago
    This is true. Anecdata, but I talked to some of the “Republicans for Bernie” back then, and it was real, not astroturf. We’d be in a different place if Bernie had been the Dem candidate in 2016. I think it’s likely Bernie’s actual presidency would have been a major shitshow that made Jimmy Carter’s look pretty solid, but it would have relegated Trump to what he originally wanted to be, a fringe political figure grifting millions from gullible conservatives. (I also think Bernie could not have won in 2020.)
    - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
      But in that scenario, the Republicans would not have run Trump a second time (and maybe not even the first, because all the populist action would have gone to Bernie). So Bernie would lose in 2020 to a normal (that is, not populist) Republican.
- KerrAvon 1y ago
  Bernie was never a 3rd option, to be clear. He wasn’t running a Ross Perot-style third party campaign, he was running to be at the top of the Democratic ticket. And when the DNC cleared the way for Hillary, he was out of the game.

csomar 1y ago

> It's like my mental framework has no way to model whatever is going on here. It is historically in line with the U.S.A. The last few decades were the exception.