4 ms·

The whole Smalltalk ecosystem was super-expensive and proprietary. I can't really blame them because open source playbooks weren't understood at that time but i

by wmf 1y ago

The whole Smalltalk ecosystem was super-expensive and proprietary. I can't really blame them because open source playbooks weren't understood at that time but it sure was a mistake.

pjmlp 1y ago
If Java had not been a think, Smalltalk would be doing just fine. It was the already quite established in big corporations, all IBM IDEs in the Visual Age series were written in Smalltalk, it was the language used alongside C++ on the famous GoF book. When Java came to be, IBM dropped all their Smalltalk investment and pivoted 100% into Java, Eclipse was the rewrite of Visual Age into Java. And the fact that companies like Cincom are still in business shows the extent Smalltalk was being used in the 1990's.
- tannhaeuser 1y ago
  Actually around 2000 before Eclipse (aka WSAD in IBM speak ;) they retargeted Visual Age for Java. I've never done anything with Smalltalk, and what I know doesn't make me comfortable. For example, Visual Age stored all your code in an opaque "repository" (not a file-based one like cvs, svn, git). And a colleague of mine told me there are no source code files, just the running project that you share around and tinker with all the time.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Exactly because of that in Visual Age for C++ v4 (the version is relevant), you could have a Smalltalk like experience for C++, similar to Energize C++, something that has taken decades to get back and we aren't there yet, even with VC++ hot reload and Live++. Image based source control has been a solved problem for Smalltalk since the 1990's. It is also a good example of how the "Python is too dynamic for a JIT" reasoning doesn't play that well, as it surely isn't more dynamic than Smalltalk, SELF and Lisp images and development environments.
  - igouy 1y ago
    > And a colleague of mine told me there are no source code files … And that has always been not true ! $ cat fact.st Stdio stdout nextPutAll: 100 factorial printString; nextPut: Character lf.! SmalltalkImage current snapshot: false andQuit: true! $ bin/pharo --headless Pharo10-SNAPSHOT-64bit-502addc.image fact.st 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 Google smalltalk sources file
  - igouy 1y ago
    > all your code in an opaque "repository" Without the scare quotes we'd call that a database. "Product Revew, Object Technology's ENVY Developer" https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mastering_ENVY_Developer/ld6E19QIMo4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=envy+developer https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mastering_ENVY_Develope... Mastering ENVY/Developer" https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mastering_ENVY_Developer/ld6E19QIMo4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=envy+developer https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mastering_ENVY_Develope...
igouy 1y ago
March 7, 1988 — "Smalltalk/V 286 is available now and costs $199.95, the company said. Registered users of Digitalk's Smalltalk/V can upgrade for $75 until June 1." https://books.google.com/books?id=CD8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA25&dq=digitalk%20v%2F286&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=digitalk%20v%2F286&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=CD8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA25&dq=d... September 1991 — "Smalltalk/V code is portable between the Windows and the OS/2 versions. And the resulting application carries no runtime charges. All for just $499.95." (Advert on the last page of "The Smalltalk Report") https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/Archives/TheSmalltalkReport/PDFS/ST/91_95/SMAL0101.PDF https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/Archives/TheSmalltalkRepor... September 1991 — "Digitalk, Inc. announced new versions of Smalltalk/V DOS and Smalltalk/V Mac that include royalty-free runtime. Smalltalk/V Windows and Smalltalk/V PM are already royalty free. … Prior to this new policy, there was a per-copy charge for runtime applications." "The Smalltalk Report" p25 https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/Archives/TheSmalltalkReport/PDFS/ST/91_95/SMAL0101.PDF https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/Archives/TheSmalltalkRepor... ~ "The Rise and Fall of Commercial Smalltalk" https://wirfs-brock.com/allen/posts/914 https://wirfs-brock.com/allen/posts/914

by wmf 1y ago

The whole Smalltalk ecosystem was super-expensive and proprietary. I can't really blame them because open source playbooks weren't understood at that time but it sure was a mistake.

pjmlp 1y ago

If Java had not been a think, Smalltalk would be doing just fine. It was the already quite established in big corporations, all IBM IDEs in the Visual Age series were written in Smalltalk, it was the language used alongside C++ on the famous GoF book. When Java came to be, IBM dropped all their Smalltalk investment and pivoted 100% into Java, Eclipse was the rewrite of Visual Age into Java. And the fact that companies like Cincom are still in business shows the extent Smalltalk was being used in the 1990's.

tannhaeuser 1y ago
Actually around 2000 before Eclipse (aka WSAD in IBM speak ;) they retargeted Visual Age for Java. I've never done anything with Smalltalk, and what I know doesn't make me comfortable. For example, Visual Age stored all your code in an opaque "repository" (not a file-based one like cvs, svn, git). And a colleague of mine told me there are no source code files, just the running project that you share around and tinker with all the time.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Exactly because of that in Visual Age for C++ v4 (the version is relevant), you could have a Smalltalk like experience for C++, similar to Energize C++, something that has taken decades to get back and we aren't there yet, even with VC++ hot reload and Live++. Image based source control has been a solved problem for Smalltalk since the 1990's. It is also a good example of how the "Python is too dynamic for a JIT" reasoning doesn't play that well, as it surely isn't more dynamic than Smalltalk, SELF and Lisp images and development environments.
- igouy 1y ago
  > And a colleague of mine told me there are no source code files … And that has always been not true ! $ cat fact.st Stdio stdout nextPutAll: 100 factorial printString; nextPut: Character lf.! SmalltalkImage current snapshot: false andQuit: true! $ bin/pharo --headless Pharo10-SNAPSHOT-64bit-502addc.image fact.st 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 Google smalltalk sources file
- igouy 1y ago
  > all your code in an opaque "repository" Without the scare quotes we'd call that a database. "Product Revew, Object Technology's ENVY Developer" https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mastering_ENVY_Developer/ld6E19QIMo4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=envy+developer https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mastering_ENVY_Develope... Mastering ENVY/Developer" https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mastering_ENVY_Developer/ld6E19QIMo4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=envy+developer https://www.google.com/books/edition/Mastering_ENVY_Develope...

igouy 1y ago

March 7, 1988 — "Smalltalk/V 286 is available now and costs $199.95, the company said. Registered users of Digitalk's Smalltalk/V can upgrade for $75 until June 1." https://books.google.com/books?id=CD8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA25&dq=digitalk%20v%2F286&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=digitalk%20v%2F286&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=CD8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA25&dq=d... September 1991 — "Smalltalk/V code is portable between the Windows and the OS/2 versions. And the resulting application carries no runtime charges. All for just $499.95." (Advert on the last page of "The Smalltalk Report") https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/Archives/TheSmalltalkReport/PDFS/ST/91_95/SMAL0101.PDF https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/Archives/TheSmalltalkRepor... September 1991 — "Digitalk, Inc. announced new versions of Smalltalk/V DOS and Smalltalk/V Mac that include royalty-free runtime. Smalltalk/V Windows and Smalltalk/V PM are already royalty free. … Prior to this new policy, there was a per-copy charge for runtime applications." "The Smalltalk Report" p25 https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/Archives/TheSmalltalkReport/PDFS/ST/91_95/SMAL0101.PDF https://rmod-files.lille.inria.fr/Archives/TheSmalltalkRepor... ~ "The Rise and Fall of Commercial Smalltalk" https://wirfs-brock.com/allen/posts/914 https://wirfs-brock.com/allen/posts/914