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There's this post about sodium-ion batteries from two days ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45677243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45677243 My

There's this post about sodium-ion batteries from two days ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45677243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45677243 My understanding is that they are particularly good for large scale storage. It looks like it's relevant part of China's strategy. Yet, there seems to be close to 0 in the US in general (except from some pilots). I find it weird at least to boast about battery energy storage as a strategy while ignoring the most relevant aspect wrt to the future of battery-based storage.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> It looks like it's relevant part of China's strategy For grid storage? Source?
- random3 1y ago
  https://www.energy-storage.news/world-first-grid-scale-sodium-ion-battery-project-in-china-enters-commercial-operation/ https://www.energy-storage.news/world-first-grid-scale-sodiu... Also in US https://www.peakenergy.com/news https://www.peakenergy.com/news
dwood_dev 1y ago
While Sodium Ion may be the future of grid batteries, it's not the present. As long as LFP is cheaper, there is no reason to go with Sodium. This calculus will probably change in 3-5 years, but today Sodium is more expensive and therefore has little demand without some form of discount or subsidy. The switch will be rapid once the economics make sense, but they don't yet.
- nharada 1y ago
  CATL is claiming mass production of their sodium-ion batteries starts in December, with a target price of $10/kWh. If that ends up even partway true it'll completely change the economics of power storage.
  - nextworddev 1y ago
    CATL is just dumping
    - nharada 1y ago
      What makes you say that? I don’t know this space very well
      - nextworddev 1y ago
        Dumping batteries is yet another strategy to take control of global energy infrastructure and destabilize petrodollar
        nharada 1y ago
        Oh yeah I get what you’re saying but is that a thing? Like CATL has had lines before that aren’t making a profit?
        Qwertious 1y ago
        It's not a thing; people are just stuck in the 2000s and think that China can't beat the West technologically and therefore must be cheating.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        nextworddev 1y ago
        They have decent technology (which they stole a decent chunk) and cheat at the same time.. nothing to do with the west feeling insecurity. In fact, the west could benefit from some mobilizing around insecurity
        tooltalk 11mo ago
        > people are just stuck in the 2000s and think that China can't beat the West technologically and therefore must be cheating. We are talking since early 2010 and on. And it's pretty much what everyone says they are: China has been breaking every trade/IP laws/agreements -- forced IP transfer/IP theft, ban foreign competition, illegal state subsidies to overcapacity, etc to get to where they are in the EV battery market.
jillesvangurp 1y ago
Sodium ion production is only recently starting to ramp up. It will take a few years for that to put a dent into LFP marketshare (both for grid storage and EVs). China is a bit ahead of course. CATL just announced they are starting mass production of their second generation battery in December. It will take a while for that factory to get to full speed production. And if they are building more factories, that will also take a while. Think 10s of ghw production short term. The US only recently got volume production of LFP working. A lot of the battery production there is still older chemistries based on NMC. Companies like Peak Energy are indeed experimenting with sodium ion and are looking pretty good right now. But they don't have any mass production facilities yet. That's years away at best. I expect there may be some licensing deals with Chinese manufacturers down the line to address this. Sodium ion might become a lot more dominant from 2030 onward. Until then, LFP should remain dominant. And with LFP being quite decent already, there's no need to wait until the 2030s with large scale grid storage deployments. This stuff works right now. That's why adoption is so high and rapid around the world.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> It looks like it's relevant part of China's strategy For grid storage? Source?

random3 1y ago
https://www.energy-storage.news/world-first-grid-scale-sodium-ion-battery-project-in-china-enters-commercial-operation/ https://www.energy-storage.news/world-first-grid-scale-sodiu... Also in US https://www.peakenergy.com/news https://www.peakenergy.com/news

dwood_dev 1y ago

While Sodium Ion may be the future of grid batteries, it's not the present. As long as LFP is cheaper, there is no reason to go with Sodium. This calculus will probably change in 3-5 years, but today Sodium is more expensive and therefore has little demand without some form of discount or subsidy. The switch will be rapid once the economics make sense, but they don't yet.

nharada 1y ago
CATL is claiming mass production of their sodium-ion batteries starts in December, with a target price of $10/kWh. If that ends up even partway true it'll completely change the economics of power storage.
- nextworddev 1y ago
  CATL is just dumping
  - nharada 1y ago
    What makes you say that? I don’t know this space very well
    - nextworddev 1y ago
      Dumping batteries is yet another strategy to take control of global energy infrastructure and destabilize petrodollar
      - nharada 1y ago
        Oh yeah I get what you’re saying but is that a thing? Like CATL has had lines before that aren’t making a profit?
        Qwertious 1y ago
        It's not a thing; people are just stuck in the 2000s and think that China can't beat the West technologically and therefore must be cheating.
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        nextworddev 1y ago
        They have decent technology (which they stole a decent chunk) and cheat at the same time.. nothing to do with the west feeling insecurity. In fact, the west could benefit from some mobilizing around insecurity
        tooltalk 11mo ago
        > people are just stuck in the 2000s and think that China can't beat the West technologically and therefore must be cheating. We are talking since early 2010 and on. And it's pretty much what everyone says they are: China has been breaking every trade/IP laws/agreements -- forced IP transfer/IP theft, ban foreign competition, illegal state subsidies to overcapacity, etc to get to where they are in the EV battery market.

jillesvangurp 1y ago

Sodium ion production is only recently starting to ramp up. It will take a few years for that to put a dent into LFP marketshare (both for grid storage and EVs). China is a bit ahead of course. CATL just announced they are starting mass production of their second generation battery in December. It will take a while for that factory to get to full speed production. And if they are building more factories, that will also take a while. Think 10s of ghw production short term. The US only recently got volume production of LFP working. A lot of the battery production there is still older chemistries based on NMC. Companies like Peak Energy are indeed experimenting with sodium ion and are looking pretty good right now. But they don't have any mass production facilities yet. That's years away at best. I expect there may be some licensing deals with Chinese manufacturers down the line to address this. Sodium ion might become a lot more dominant from 2030 onward. Until then, LFP should remain dominant. And with LFP being quite decent already, there's no need to wait until the 2030s with large scale grid storage deployments. This stuff works right now. That's why adoption is so high and rapid around the world.