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Of course, it's a classic PR move (and one that Apple has used quite frequently in the past) to brashly deny that you're building a product up until the day you

Of course, it's a classic PR move (and one that Apple has used quite frequently in the past) to brashly deny that you're building a product up until the day you release it. Whether or not it's true, what's genius about Eric Schmidt's statement is that it puts the ball entirely in Apple's court for the maps fiasco. He makes it sound like Google was perfectly content to just let things keep working as they had been, and that it was Apple who unceremoniously ended things for no valid reason, where the truth was almost certainly more nuanced than that.

headShrinker 14y ago
Eric Schmidt is very good at displacing responsibility and target other parties. It reminds me of when he said, "If You Have Something You Don't Want Anyone To Know, Maybe You Shouldn't Be Doing It". He is displacing responsibility from Google and targeting the public. He has a very passive-aggressive style and it's very affective.
- Tichy 14y ago
  How is it Google's responsibility if you buy an iPhone?
  - cooldeal 14y ago
    Not because of that but because of the speculation that Google may have chosen not to renew the license for Google maps on the iPhone. It could be a strategic decision to help Android, could've asked for much more licensing revenue, or refused key features like 3D, turn by turn etc. Maybe even demand G+ integration like the FB and Twitter integration. Or it could be that Apple wanted to do Maps for strategic reasons. Or a combination of all of the above. But Schmidt's quote seem to put the ball in Apple's court.
    - Tichy 14y ago
      Maybe this will be clarified in time, for now people believe what they want to believe. I find it highly unlikely that Google would have revoked the maps license for the iPhone. I think Apple already kicked Google search in earlier iterations of iOS? They simply want to get rid of Google stuff.
      - randomdata 14y ago
        One thing of note is that none of the new feature points in iOS6 Maps are supported by the public Google Maps APIs. For Google to not allow the general public access to that data may be very well be the same reason that keeps them from not offering the data to Apple, whatever reason that may be. But without that data, Apple's hands were tied to do anything new with the software. Starting new may have been the only way they saw to restore innovation to the application (or, at very least, catch up to the competition). Information accuracy aside, I find the new Maps app to be a vast improvement over the previous version. It is all just conjecture at this point, of course, but I find it hard to believe that Apple would walk away if all of the terms were favourable just because it is Google.
    - bad_user 14y ago
      Even if that's the case, I'm pretty sure Google wouldn't say no to a truck load of cash for a license, at least until Apple's Maps was more acceptable. Besides, why would Google want to discontinue GMaps on iOS, when GMaps on Android is much better? And who do you think they are? Some kids on a playground getting their toys and leaving after one of them pooped in the sand?
      - qq66 14y ago
        It's all about truckloads of cash. But I can easily see a situation where Google forecasted that trying to get a few percentage points of iPhone users to switch to Android was more profitable in the long term than the licensing revenue they would get from Apple or advertising revenues from a standalone app..
      - ChuckMcM 14y ago
        You miss that it takes two to play, both the truck to carry off the cash and the cash to put into the truck. I don't doubt for a minute that there is a number that Google would say "Sure, ship our maps." but I'm reasonably certain now that Apple was unwilling to pay that number. Google loses nothing by having iPhone maps suck, rather it gains a bit of PR ("look we can do Maps better than Apple, ha ha poopey face") and since Maps are a really critical part of the mobile experience it might pick up a few points of market share.
        Tichy 14y ago
        You are reasonably certain now, based on what information? This really is a funny case study on how rumors develop on the internet...
        ChuckMcM 14y ago
        Based on three things: 1) Various facts with regard to AMaps quality (fit and finish) vs GMaps quality. Knowledge of licensing terms [1] and the fact that 2012 is 5 years after 2007 (introduction of the iPhone [2]). 2) Interviews with Google executives over the various Android lawsuits and tweets from Andy Rubin amongst others. 3) The "make money now" mantra that has swept through Google cancelling dozens of projects and creating pricing models for the ones that remain (AppEngine, Maps, Etc.) So like any good investigator one looks at what is known, and what is not known, and trys to come up with a series of steps that would lead to the observed outcome (in this case crappy maps on the iPhone). You can classify those in the range from "more likely" to "less likely". So for example a theory that "Google Maps are no longer on the iPhone because Apple forgot to renew their license." would seem improbable, putting together something as complex as the iPhone doesn't allow for 'forgetting' such things. A theory that "Apple couldn't get a license" also fails the sniff test as Google clearly licenses things to folks all the time, they have a revenue model for that and as a publicly traded company they generally don't "not take revenue" when its possible to do so effectively. So if you get to the point in your reasoning that Apple could get a license if they wanted to, and Google could give them that license if they wanted to. Then you are left looking at a failed negotiation. I've participated in both successful and unsuccessful negotiations like these, its like many things where the details or scale may be different but the basic steps share a lot of similarities. That leaves us speculating on how the negotiations failed. Given how badly the AMaps product (as shipped) is in comparison to the GMaps product, clearly Google was in a fairly strong negotiating position. Given Apple's free cash flow and assets (remember they made more profit last quarter than Google made in all revenue) they clearly could afford to pay a pretty arbitrary price. The simplest answer (which for me makes it the most likely) is that Apple was unwilling to meet the terms Google set for licensing. So you (Tichy) have posed variations on this question to a number of people on a number of threads here but I've yet to see any reasoning you might have for why you don't believe this is the case. I realize it is implied by the snark but not actually expressed as a dissenting opinion. I'd love to hear your reasoning on it if you are free to share it. I note in a sister comment you mention 'revoke' the license, I don't think Google did any such thing, I believe the license expired and it was up for renewal, it was the renewal that failed to materialize. [1] "Our license to include the YouTube app in iOS has ended, customers can use YouTube in the Safari browser and Google is working on a new YouTube app to be on the App Store," explains Apple in a brief statement to The Verge. -- http://www.maclife.com/article/news/apple_ios_youtube_license_over_google_offer_its_own_app_ios_6 http://www.maclife.com/article/news/apple_ios_youtube_licens... [2] "iPhone also includes Google Maps, featuring Google’s groundbreaking maps service and iPhone’s amazing maps application, offering the best maps experience by far on any pocket device. Users can view maps, satellite images, traffic information and get directions, all from iPhone’s remarkable and easy-to-use touch interface. " -- https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/01/09Apple-Reinvents-the-Phone-with-iPhone.html https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/01/09Apple-Reinvents-t...
- Bakkot 14y ago
  The context on the 'maybe you shouldn't be doing it' quote is that Google is not going to disobey court orders to protect your privacy. It was never Google's responsibility. Please let's move on from this particular dead horse.
  - headShrinker 14y ago
    Yes we know the context, and in quoting him it, it goes to support a passed history he has of passive-agression. Sorry you don't like it, but that doesn't mean it's not valid. In that case, Google was brushing responsibility for the 4th amendment and reporting them to the government, whether Google actually did have a responsibility is not really in question. The point is he redirected responsibility and targeted someone else. This similar to what he just did with Apple, dumping all responsibility for the maps issue in Apple's lap like Google 'did no wrong'. We don't know what actually happened but we know Google isn't as altruistic as some would want to believe and as Schmidt makes it sound.
  - sneak 14y ago
    > The context on the 'maybe you shouldn't be doing it' quote is that Google is not going to disobey court orders to protect your privacy. Though, Google complies with NSLs too, which are administrative subpoenas written by the feds and never seen by a judge, so let's not get all "court order" here.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
markerdmann 14y ago
Why are people calling it the "maps fiasco"? I just installed iOS 6, and the new Maps app is one of the best pieces of software I've ever used.
- coliveira 14y ago
  Agreed. The fact that some data is not on par with current Google offering doesn't make the product a bad one. Data issues can be quickly solved, specially when there are so many users to report problems.
  - tomkarlo 14y ago
    "Data issues can be quickly solved, specially when there are so many users to report problems." That depends on the size of the dataset, and the quality of the reports. It's not obvious that this is true in this case.
    - coliveira 14y ago
      For a maps application, the best report is just the location of the affected user. Any lookup on existing maps for that location will show what the problem is.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
        > Any lookup on existing maps... Ironically... I see that leading to a spike in hits to maps.google.com coming from Apple's internal IP range. :)
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- olalonde 14y ago
  In case you genuinely missed the flood of negative press regarding iOS 6 maps, here's a good overview: http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobile-technology/ios-6s-apple-maps-yes-its-bad-203014 http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobile-technology/ios-6s-apple-ma.... Also, some comment threads on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4548829 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4548829 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4548071 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4548071

headShrinker 14y ago

Eric Schmidt is very good at displacing responsibility and target other parties. It reminds me of when he said, "If You Have Something You Don't Want Anyone To Know, Maybe You Shouldn't Be Doing It". He is displacing responsibility from Google and targeting the public. He has a very passive-aggressive style and it's very affective.

Tichy 14y ago
How is it Google's responsibility if you buy an iPhone?
- cooldeal 14y ago
  Not because of that but because of the speculation that Google may have chosen not to renew the license for Google maps on the iPhone. It could be a strategic decision to help Android, could've asked for much more licensing revenue, or refused key features like 3D, turn by turn etc. Maybe even demand G+ integration like the FB and Twitter integration. Or it could be that Apple wanted to do Maps for strategic reasons. Or a combination of all of the above. But Schmidt's quote seem to put the ball in Apple's court.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    Maybe this will be clarified in time, for now people believe what they want to believe. I find it highly unlikely that Google would have revoked the maps license for the iPhone. I think Apple already kicked Google search in earlier iterations of iOS? They simply want to get rid of Google stuff.
    - randomdata 14y ago
      One thing of note is that none of the new feature points in iOS6 Maps are supported by the public Google Maps APIs. For Google to not allow the general public access to that data may be very well be the same reason that keeps them from not offering the data to Apple, whatever reason that may be. But without that data, Apple's hands were tied to do anything new with the software. Starting new may have been the only way they saw to restore innovation to the application (or, at very least, catch up to the competition). Information accuracy aside, I find the new Maps app to be a vast improvement over the previous version. It is all just conjecture at this point, of course, but I find it hard to believe that Apple would walk away if all of the terms were favourable just because it is Google.
  - bad_user 14y ago
    Even if that's the case, I'm pretty sure Google wouldn't say no to a truck load of cash for a license, at least until Apple's Maps was more acceptable. Besides, why would Google want to discontinue GMaps on iOS, when GMaps on Android is much better? And who do you think they are? Some kids on a playground getting their toys and leaving after one of them pooped in the sand?
    - qq66 14y ago
      It's all about truckloads of cash. But I can easily see a situation where Google forecasted that trying to get a few percentage points of iPhone users to switch to Android was more profitable in the long term than the licensing revenue they would get from Apple or advertising revenues from a standalone app..
    - ChuckMcM 14y ago
      You miss that it takes two to play, both the truck to carry off the cash and the cash to put into the truck. I don't doubt for a minute that there is a number that Google would say "Sure, ship our maps." but I'm reasonably certain now that Apple was unwilling to pay that number. Google loses nothing by having iPhone maps suck, rather it gains a bit of PR ("look we can do Maps better than Apple, ha ha poopey face") and since Maps are a really critical part of the mobile experience it might pick up a few points of market share.
      - Tichy 14y ago
        You are reasonably certain now, based on what information? This really is a funny case study on how rumors develop on the internet...
        ChuckMcM 14y ago
        Based on three things: 1) Various facts with regard to AMaps quality (fit and finish) vs GMaps quality. Knowledge of licensing terms [1] and the fact that 2012 is 5 years after 2007 (introduction of the iPhone [2]). 2) Interviews with Google executives over the various Android lawsuits and tweets from Andy Rubin amongst others. 3) The "make money now" mantra that has swept through Google cancelling dozens of projects and creating pricing models for the ones that remain (AppEngine, Maps, Etc.) So like any good investigator one looks at what is known, and what is not known, and trys to come up with a series of steps that would lead to the observed outcome (in this case crappy maps on the iPhone). You can classify those in the range from "more likely" to "less likely". So for example a theory that "Google Maps are no longer on the iPhone because Apple forgot to renew their license." would seem improbable, putting together something as complex as the iPhone doesn't allow for 'forgetting' such things. A theory that "Apple couldn't get a license" also fails the sniff test as Google clearly licenses things to folks all the time, they have a revenue model for that and as a publicly traded company they generally don't "not take revenue" when its possible to do so effectively. So if you get to the point in your reasoning that Apple could get a license if they wanted to, and Google could give them that license if they wanted to. Then you are left looking at a failed negotiation. I've participated in both successful and unsuccessful negotiations like these, its like many things where the details or scale may be different but the basic steps share a lot of similarities. That leaves us speculating on how the negotiations failed. Given how badly the AMaps product (as shipped) is in comparison to the GMaps product, clearly Google was in a fairly strong negotiating position. Given Apple's free cash flow and assets (remember they made more profit last quarter than Google made in all revenue) they clearly could afford to pay a pretty arbitrary price. The simplest answer (which for me makes it the most likely) is that Apple was unwilling to meet the terms Google set for licensing. So you (Tichy) have posed variations on this question to a number of people on a number of threads here but I've yet to see any reasoning you might have for why you don't believe this is the case. I realize it is implied by the snark but not actually expressed as a dissenting opinion. I'd love to hear your reasoning on it if you are free to share it. I note in a sister comment you mention 'revoke' the license, I don't think Google did any such thing, I believe the license expired and it was up for renewal, it was the renewal that failed to materialize. [1] "Our license to include the YouTube app in iOS has ended, customers can use YouTube in the Safari browser and Google is working on a new YouTube app to be on the App Store," explains Apple in a brief statement to The Verge. -- http://www.maclife.com/article/news/apple_ios_youtube_license_over_google_offer_its_own_app_ios_6 http://www.maclife.com/article/news/apple_ios_youtube_licens... [2] "iPhone also includes Google Maps, featuring Google’s groundbreaking maps service and iPhone’s amazing maps application, offering the best maps experience by far on any pocket device. Users can view maps, satellite images, traffic information and get directions, all from iPhone’s remarkable and easy-to-use touch interface. " -- https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/01/09Apple-Reinvents-the-Phone-with-iPhone.html https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/01/09Apple-Reinvents-t...
Bakkot 14y ago
The context on the 'maybe you shouldn't be doing it' quote is that Google is not going to disobey court orders to protect your privacy. It was never Google's responsibility. Please let's move on from this particular dead horse.
- headShrinker 14y ago
  Yes we know the context, and in quoting him it, it goes to support a passed history he has of passive-agression. Sorry you don't like it, but that doesn't mean it's not valid. In that case, Google was brushing responsibility for the 4th amendment and reporting them to the government, whether Google actually did have a responsibility is not really in question. The point is he redirected responsibility and targeted someone else. This similar to what he just did with Apple, dumping all responsibility for the maps issue in Apple's lap like Google 'did no wrong'. We don't know what actually happened but we know Google isn't as altruistic as some would want to believe and as Schmidt makes it sound.
- sneak 14y ago
  > The context on the 'maybe you shouldn't be doing it' quote is that Google is not going to disobey court orders to protect your privacy. Though, Google complies with NSLs too, which are administrative subpoenas written by the feds and never seen by a judge, so let's not get all "court order" here.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

markerdmann 14y ago

Why are people calling it the "maps fiasco"? I just installed iOS 6, and the new Maps app is one of the best pieces of software I've ever used.

coliveira 14y ago
Agreed. The fact that some data is not on par with current Google offering doesn't make the product a bad one. Data issues can be quickly solved, specially when there are so many users to report problems.
- tomkarlo 14y ago
  "Data issues can be quickly solved, specially when there are so many users to report problems." That depends on the size of the dataset, and the quality of the reports. It's not obvious that this is true in this case.
  - coliveira 14y ago
    For a maps application, the best report is just the location of the affected user. Any lookup on existing maps for that location will show what the problem is.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
      > Any lookup on existing maps... Ironically... I see that leading to a spike in hits to maps.google.com coming from Apple's internal IP range. :)
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
olalonde 14y ago
In case you genuinely missed the flood of negative press regarding iOS 6 maps, here's a good overview: http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobile-technology/ios-6s-apple-maps-yes-its-bad-203014 http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobile-technology/ios-6s-apple-ma.... Also, some comment threads on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4548829 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4548829 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4548071 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4548071