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I was also thinking of this as a perpetual motion machine but perhaps the slightest attempt to use force of the moving ions would cause the rotation to stop. M

by smoyer 14y ago

I was also thinking of this as a perpetual motion machine but perhaps the slightest attempt to use force of the moving ions would cause the rotation to stop. My non-physicist brain says if you have something that will move forever, it sounds like free energy!

Zenst 14y ago
I believe that because we are talking about quantum effect energy, then it is a case of any form of measuring would effect it. That is to say any attempt to extract (which could be deemed a form of measuring/observing) any energy from it would be at the expense of the source. Can think of it as quantum friction if that helps. Perhaps a betetr way to explain it would be a atom, which has the classic solarsystem effect with orbiting electrons. Now we have managed to tap into that energy and that is the atomic bomb and later nucleur power stations. Now you know in those cases the original source of material/energy is changed and that is it in a nutshell, by measuring/observing/tapping into that level of energy will effect it and in a way introduces friction into a frictionless state of energy.
- alainbryden 14y ago
  So while it might survive the heat death of the universe, there could be no way to measure it.
  - ars 14y ago
    You would measure it by giving it energy, but not enough to perturb it. You give it exactly as much as it gives back, so you don't cause any changes.
- alecst 14y ago
  This comment is speculation and is wrong. You cannot take energy out of a ground-state configuration but it has nothing to do, at least directly, with measurement.
whatshisface 14y ago
It doesn't move forever, it moves until you stop it. It is a lot like a spinning satellite - the only reason it keeps going is because there is no friction.
alecst 14y ago
By free energy one usually means the excess energy going out of a system after putting energy in. Since this type of transformation is not possible we never see truly free energy. There are lots of systems which have things in motion, and could in principle stay in motion forever, that do not provide free energy because the amount of energy going out = the amount of energy going in = zero. A pendulum in a vacuum is an example. If you want an analogy to the quantum situation of a time clock spinning around you can think of the penny rolling in a funnel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2awnAeuFbc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2awnAeuFbc If there were no friction then the penny would never fall through the hole. It would reach a 'ground state', where it's as far down the funnel as its initial angular momentum will allow, and go no further but continue to whiz around. This is still not free energy and is not a quantum effect.
VLM 14y ago
"My non-physicist brain says if you have something that will move forever, it sounds like free energy!" Counterexample, hydrogen atom with electron circling in lowest (boring ole unexcited ground) energy state. Classical theory says that electron will radiate and auger in leaving the world with nothing but a sea of neutrons, but quantum mechanically its in its lowest energy state. Electron orbits are not terribly interesting. Yes the s orbital is really boring and the p d and f orbitals are much more interesting looking (talk to a chemist) but fundamentally a bunch of blah. In comparison this time crystal is an exceedingly weird looking complicated configuration, which means it'll probably be much more interesting.
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eli_gottlieb 14y ago
"An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside, unbalanced force." Keeping the ions moving once the material superconducts (reducing its "electromagnetic friction" to effectively nothing) requires very little, if any, energy. It can run entirely off its own inertia.

by smoyer 14y ago

Zenst 14y ago

I believe that because we are talking about quantum effect energy, then it is a case of any form of measuring would effect it. That is to say any attempt to extract (which could be deemed a form of measuring/observing) any energy from it would be at the expense of the source. Can think of it as quantum friction if that helps. Perhaps a betetr way to explain it would be a atom, which has the classic solarsystem effect with orbiting electrons. Now we have managed to tap into that energy and that is the atomic bomb and later nucleur power stations. Now you know in those cases the original source of material/energy is changed and that is it in a nutshell, by measuring/observing/tapping into that level of energy will effect it and in a way introduces friction into a frictionless state of energy.

alainbryden 14y ago
So while it might survive the heat death of the universe, there could be no way to measure it.
- ars 14y ago
  You would measure it by giving it energy, but not enough to perturb it. You give it exactly as much as it gives back, so you don't cause any changes.
alecst 14y ago
This comment is speculation and is wrong. You cannot take energy out of a ground-state configuration but it has nothing to do, at least directly, with measurement.

whatshisface 14y ago

It doesn't move forever, it moves until you stop it. It is a lot like a spinning satellite - the only reason it keeps going is because there is no friction.

alecst 14y ago

By free energy one usually means the excess energy going out of a system after putting energy in. Since this type of transformation is not possible we never see truly free energy. There are lots of systems which have things in motion, and could in principle stay in motion forever, that do not provide free energy because the amount of energy going out = the amount of energy going in = zero. A pendulum in a vacuum is an example. If you want an analogy to the quantum situation of a time clock spinning around you can think of the penny rolling in a funnel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2awnAeuFbc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2awnAeuFbc If there were no friction then the penny would never fall through the hole. It would reach a 'ground state', where it's as far down the funnel as its initial angular momentum will allow, and go no further but continue to whiz around. This is still not free energy and is not a quantum effect.

VLM 14y ago

"My non-physicist brain says if you have something that will move forever, it sounds like free energy!" Counterexample, hydrogen atom with electron circling in lowest (boring ole unexcited ground) energy state. Classical theory says that electron will radiate and auger in leaving the world with nothing but a sea of neutrons, but quantum mechanically its in its lowest energy state. Electron orbits are not terribly interesting. Yes the s orbital is really boring and the p d and f orbitals are much more interesting looking (talk to a chemist) but fundamentally a bunch of blah. In comparison this time crystal is an exceedingly weird looking complicated configuration, which means it'll probably be much more interesting.

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eli_gottlieb 14y ago

"An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside, unbalanced force." Keeping the ions moving once the material superconducts (reducing its "electromagnetic friction" to effectively nothing) requires very little, if any, energy. It can run entirely off its own inertia.