4 ms·

You are misunderstanding. It's not I don't want Windows 11. For example, I have a pretty good gaming PC that plays Grand Theft Auto V at 4K and Elden Ring on l

by geor9e 1y ago

You are misunderstanding. It's not I don't want Windows 11. For example, I have a pretty good gaming PC that plays Grand Theft Auto V at 4K and Elden Ring on low settings. It no longer gets security updates. Microsoft has made the arbitrary policy that this hardware is too old simply because it doesn't have TPM 2.0 Secure Boot, and a certain generation of Intel or AMD CPU. They have decided it should go to a landfill. Of course, I am more skilled than the average person, so I easily installed a hack to bypass these hardware requirements and get Windows 11 installed anyway. So I get security updates. But it's a matter of principle that I shouldn't have to use a hack. Also, a lot of these comments are misunderstanding the question. Recall, Copilot, and ads are not the reason most of these people are opting for Mac instead of Windows 11. It's because they cannot install it legitimately at all. Microsoft said you have to buy new hardware, so they're buying new hardware.

kllrnohj 1y ago
> Microsoft has made the arbitrary policy that this hardware is too old simply because it doesn't have TPM 2.0 Secure Boot There's stuff I don't like about Windows 11, but this feels kinda overblown. The hardware requirements are satisfied by almost anything from the last 10 years, which is still a decently generous support window. TPM 2.0 is probably worth requiring, not unlike the 64-bit migration back in the day.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  I have a PC with a 7700k that doesn't qualify despite running circles around the crappy Pentiums and Atoms that did get the ability to upgrade. I get that they don't want to support ancient hardware but a good amount of powerful CPUs in the Intel 6XXX and 7XXX series, as well as powerful first-gen Zen CPUs got cut off for no clear reason. As far as I can tell, Windows barely leverages the new features in TPM 2 for consumer versions and the code for TPM 1.2 still seems to be there. The intruction set also didn't meaningfully change, unless we're talking 2010 era chips. I'm not using Windows on that desktop anymore so I don't feel too bad about it, but I can easily give my PC to a relative if I get a new one and they'd be able to keep using it for five or six years when it comes to performance. The only real obstacle is software support.
  - keyringlight 1y ago
    The interesting thing about Kaby-lake/7th is that other CPUs in that generation are allowed by MS. While there is the extensions support aspect, after spectre/meltdown I think part of it was getting AMD/intel to sign up to providing firmware updates for product ranges over the win11 lifespan, then cycle will repeat again for win12.
    - ack_complete 1y ago
      This was a late addition to the Windows 11 supported CPU list. The rumor is that this happened after it was pointed out that Microsoft was still selling brand new Surface Studio 2 devices that had 7th gen Intel CPUs.
- ehnto 1y ago
  10 year ago was 2015 mate, that's an outrageous time limit for a product you paid thousands for. If my bike EOLd itself after ten years I'd be livid. Imagine if your car just stopped starting after ten years. Computers older than 10 years includes the vast majority of computers ever built. It's an insane requirement and it's not one that other OS share. And the solution isn't hard work for Microsoft, the risk is mine to take if I don't want to upgrade for better secure boot. Anyway, I migrated to linux for my gaming PC, the last Windows PC I had, and it's going really well. Good riddance.
  - kllrnohj 1y ago
    > Imagine if your car just stopped starting after ten years. Bad example. Windows 10 computers continue to work just fine. They aren't going to stop turning on
    - sylos 1y ago
      Roads don't upgrade out cars, but sofiware does.
- geor9e 1y ago
  Can you clarify what operating system the gaming PC I play Elden Ring on is supposed to run? Please note that Windows 10 does not receive security updates, and Windows 11 blocks the install because my quad core intel CPU arbitrarily didn't make their list, and my motherboard doesn't have a TPM 2.0 module. If you're telling me that I should throw this amazing CPU in the trash, please say it outright. State that you think millions of still above‑average PC components should be arbitrarily turned into e‑waste, so that they can't be passed down to kids without a computer, can't serve any role at all, because we can now buy brand new 10x slower $150 ARM64 laptops with secure boot. If you think that trade-off is worth it, and that a big corporation isn't just doing it as planned obsolescence, I just want to hear it. Keep in mind there's a third‑party hack to flip the bit, allowing Windows 11 to install anyway. That proves Microsoft could save all these PCs from landfills if it wanted to.
  - magic_hamster 1y ago
    > Can you clarify what operating system the gaming PC I play Elden Ring on is supposed to run? Windows 10 LTSC IoT.
    - geor9e 1y ago
      I don't know, man. I'm just now hearing about this, but after quickly looking it up, I've concluded that I can't legally buy it, I can't install it as a straightforward upgrade, and some of my games won't run on it. So, if I'm going to be breaking the law anyway, I might as well use the hack to install Windows 11 for free. Here's the info I skimmed "Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC is designed for devices that need to run a single task consistently and securely for many years, with minimal changes. Examples include ATMs, medical devices, point-of-sale terminals, and industrial control systems. This Long-Term Servicing Channel (LTSC) version intentionally omits modern features and frequent updates to ensure a highly stable, unchanging operating system." "The IoT version is sold exclusively through authorized Microsoft partners and has a different licensing model. It is not for internal use on general-purpose PCs and purchasing it from third-party resellers is likely to involve an illegitimate or stolen key." "Microsoft does not officially support or recommend a transition from Windows Home or Pro to a Windows IoT Enterprise LTSC version for regular users. " "Some game anti-cheat software has been known to have issues with LTSC versions of Windows, leading to potential game compatibility or stability problems. Dependency on the Xbox app: Games distributed via the Xbox app or Game Pass would be inaccessible. Many newer games also rely on components from the Xbox app for proper functionality, potentially leaving you locked out of a title even if you owned it on a different platform."
- magic_hamster 1y ago
  Not 10 years. For example, another commenter mentioned the 7700 CPU which is from 2017. Keep in mind that 2017 was the launch of this CPU which means it was available to consumers for a couple of years at least. So presumably you could build a new system around 2019 which is just six years ago and not make the cut. Microsoft is wrong to do this. There is LOT of capable hardware out there which can provide value. The TPM 2 limitation is completely artificial, as you can install Windows 11 anyway with a quick hack and it will work fine. We have an HTPC with hardware from 2008 (mainly the board and CPU) which runs absolutely great. It still manages to surprise us with how capable it is. We are going to use this thing until it absolutely dies with no hope for recovery.
  - ac29 1y ago
    > Not 10 years. For example, another commenter mentioned the 7700 CPU which is from 2017. Keep in mind that 2017 was the launch of this CPU which means it was available to consumers for a couple of years at least. So presumably you could build a new system around 2019 which is just six years ago and not make the cut. Apple seems to get a lot of praise for long term software support and the latest iOS doesnt support hardware released before 2019 as far as I can tell. In fact Linux is probably the only major exception to this, and if you need commercial support for 10+ year old hardware it costs $$$$
    - maratc 1y ago
      > Apple seems to get a lot of praise for long term software support and the latest iOS doesnt support hardware released before 2019 as far as I can tell. iPhone XR/XS that were released in 2018 indeed can't get the latest iOS (26.) The good thing is that security updates for the previous iOS versions (18, 16) usually roll for a year or more. Currently, iOS 15 (from 2021) is the oldest version still receiving updates (15.8.5 was released a month ago) and the oldest devices capable of running that are from 2015.
    - magic_hamster 1y ago
      > Apple seems to get a lot of praise for long term software support Not aware of this, and actually, it seems like the contrary. Apple repeatedly deprecates stuff and makes users and developers dance around a rather quick, and very unreliable software deprecation cycle which makes it terrible to do anything long term on Mac. Plenty of examples for this. Just ask around.
magic_hamster 1y ago
From Microsoft's perspective you are running unsupported hardware. You're getting updates for now. But any future update might ban your system, disable your updates or even unintentionally break your system. It makes sense Microsoft are being more lenient about it at the moment, but a year or two from now? I wouldn't count on it. As for myself, I didn't bother with Windows 11. Converted all my daily drivers who were still on Windows to Linux. On one machine I have a dual boot Windows 10 LTSC IoT just in case. This gives me 7 more years.
- geor9e 1y ago
  Honestly, big tech companies have screwed me enough times that I just sort of plan for it. So, I'll cross that bridge when it comes to it. My running policy is to keep all the files I care about on a Synology NAS that syncs to a backup cloud over my Wi‑Fi, and then have all my laptops and PCs just have easily replaceable common downloads on them.

by geor9e 1y ago

kllrnohj 1y ago

> Microsoft has made the arbitrary policy that this hardware is too old simply because it doesn't have TPM 2.0 Secure Boot There's stuff I don't like about Windows 11, but this feels kinda overblown. The hardware requirements are satisfied by almost anything from the last 10 years, which is still a decently generous support window. TPM 2.0 is probably worth requiring, not unlike the 64-bit migration back in the day.

jeroenhd 1y ago
I have a PC with a 7700k that doesn't qualify despite running circles around the crappy Pentiums and Atoms that did get the ability to upgrade. I get that they don't want to support ancient hardware but a good amount of powerful CPUs in the Intel 6XXX and 7XXX series, as well as powerful first-gen Zen CPUs got cut off for no clear reason. As far as I can tell, Windows barely leverages the new features in TPM 2 for consumer versions and the code for TPM 1.2 still seems to be there. The intruction set also didn't meaningfully change, unless we're talking 2010 era chips. I'm not using Windows on that desktop anymore so I don't feel too bad about it, but I can easily give my PC to a relative if I get a new one and they'd be able to keep using it for five or six years when it comes to performance. The only real obstacle is software support.
- keyringlight 1y ago
  The interesting thing about Kaby-lake/7th is that other CPUs in that generation are allowed by MS. While there is the extensions support aspect, after spectre/meltdown I think part of it was getting AMD/intel to sign up to providing firmware updates for product ranges over the win11 lifespan, then cycle will repeat again for win12.
  - ack_complete 1y ago
    This was a late addition to the Windows 11 supported CPU list. The rumor is that this happened after it was pointed out that Microsoft was still selling brand new Surface Studio 2 devices that had 7th gen Intel CPUs.
ehnto 1y ago
10 year ago was 2015 mate, that's an outrageous time limit for a product you paid thousands for. If my bike EOLd itself after ten years I'd be livid. Imagine if your car just stopped starting after ten years. Computers older than 10 years includes the vast majority of computers ever built. It's an insane requirement and it's not one that other OS share. And the solution isn't hard work for Microsoft, the risk is mine to take if I don't want to upgrade for better secure boot. Anyway, I migrated to linux for my gaming PC, the last Windows PC I had, and it's going really well. Good riddance.
- kllrnohj 1y ago
  > Imagine if your car just stopped starting after ten years. Bad example. Windows 10 computers continue to work just fine. They aren't going to stop turning on
  - sylos 1y ago
    Roads don't upgrade out cars, but sofiware does.
geor9e 1y ago
Can you clarify what operating system the gaming PC I play Elden Ring on is supposed to run? Please note that Windows 10 does not receive security updates, and Windows 11 blocks the install because my quad core intel CPU arbitrarily didn't make their list, and my motherboard doesn't have a TPM 2.0 module. If you're telling me that I should throw this amazing CPU in the trash, please say it outright. State that you think millions of still above‑average PC components should be arbitrarily turned into e‑waste, so that they can't be passed down to kids without a computer, can't serve any role at all, because we can now buy brand new 10x slower $150 ARM64 laptops with secure boot. If you think that trade-off is worth it, and that a big corporation isn't just doing it as planned obsolescence, I just want to hear it. Keep in mind there's a third‑party hack to flip the bit, allowing Windows 11 to install anyway. That proves Microsoft could save all these PCs from landfills if it wanted to.
- magic_hamster 1y ago
  > Can you clarify what operating system the gaming PC I play Elden Ring on is supposed to run? Windows 10 LTSC IoT.
  - geor9e 1y ago
    I don't know, man. I'm just now hearing about this, but after quickly looking it up, I've concluded that I can't legally buy it, I can't install it as a straightforward upgrade, and some of my games won't run on it. So, if I'm going to be breaking the law anyway, I might as well use the hack to install Windows 11 for free. Here's the info I skimmed "Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC is designed for devices that need to run a single task consistently and securely for many years, with minimal changes. Examples include ATMs, medical devices, point-of-sale terminals, and industrial control systems. This Long-Term Servicing Channel (LTSC) version intentionally omits modern features and frequent updates to ensure a highly stable, unchanging operating system." "The IoT version is sold exclusively through authorized Microsoft partners and has a different licensing model. It is not for internal use on general-purpose PCs and purchasing it from third-party resellers is likely to involve an illegitimate or stolen key." "Microsoft does not officially support or recommend a transition from Windows Home or Pro to a Windows IoT Enterprise LTSC version for regular users. " "Some game anti-cheat software has been known to have issues with LTSC versions of Windows, leading to potential game compatibility or stability problems. Dependency on the Xbox app: Games distributed via the Xbox app or Game Pass would be inaccessible. Many newer games also rely on components from the Xbox app for proper functionality, potentially leaving you locked out of a title even if you owned it on a different platform."
magic_hamster 1y ago
Not 10 years. For example, another commenter mentioned the 7700 CPU which is from 2017. Keep in mind that 2017 was the launch of this CPU which means it was available to consumers for a couple of years at least. So presumably you could build a new system around 2019 which is just six years ago and not make the cut. Microsoft is wrong to do this. There is LOT of capable hardware out there which can provide value. The TPM 2 limitation is completely artificial, as you can install Windows 11 anyway with a quick hack and it will work fine. We have an HTPC with hardware from 2008 (mainly the board and CPU) which runs absolutely great. It still manages to surprise us with how capable it is. We are going to use this thing until it absolutely dies with no hope for recovery.
- ac29 1y ago
  > Not 10 years. For example, another commenter mentioned the 7700 CPU which is from 2017. Keep in mind that 2017 was the launch of this CPU which means it was available to consumers for a couple of years at least. So presumably you could build a new system around 2019 which is just six years ago and not make the cut. Apple seems to get a lot of praise for long term software support and the latest iOS doesnt support hardware released before 2019 as far as I can tell. In fact Linux is probably the only major exception to this, and if you need commercial support for 10+ year old hardware it costs $$$$
  - maratc 1y ago
    > Apple seems to get a lot of praise for long term software support and the latest iOS doesnt support hardware released before 2019 as far as I can tell. iPhone XR/XS that were released in 2018 indeed can't get the latest iOS (26.) The good thing is that security updates for the previous iOS versions (18, 16) usually roll for a year or more. Currently, iOS 15 (from 2021) is the oldest version still receiving updates (15.8.5 was released a month ago) and the oldest devices capable of running that are from 2015.
  - magic_hamster 1y ago
    > Apple seems to get a lot of praise for long term software support Not aware of this, and actually, it seems like the contrary. Apple repeatedly deprecates stuff and makes users and developers dance around a rather quick, and very unreliable software deprecation cycle which makes it terrible to do anything long term on Mac. Plenty of examples for this. Just ask around.

magic_hamster 1y ago

From Microsoft's perspective you are running unsupported hardware. You're getting updates for now. But any future update might ban your system, disable your updates or even unintentionally break your system. It makes sense Microsoft are being more lenient about it at the moment, but a year or two from now? I wouldn't count on it. As for myself, I didn't bother with Windows 11. Converted all my daily drivers who were still on Windows to Linux. On one machine I have a dual boot Windows 10 LTSC IoT just in case. This gives me 7 more years.

geor9e 1y ago
Honestly, big tech companies have screwed me enough times that I just sort of plan for it. So, I'll cross that bridge when it comes to it. My running policy is to keep all the files I care about on a Synology NAS that syncs to a backup cloud over my Wi‑Fi, and then have all my laptops and PCs just have easily replaceable common downloads on them.