4 ms·

What’s a one paragraph explanation of why 11 is considered so much worse than 10 for someone who didn’t use Windows since 7?

by exitb 1y ago

throwaway48476 1y ago
The start menu is now written in Javascript and horrifically slow.
- wongogue 1y ago
  To clarify: Not that it is any better — The recommended section which serves OneDrive files is a ReactNative component.
- kristianp 1y ago
  The start menu is already slow in Windows 10. I don't think that's new to Win 11.
- commandersaki 1y ago
  Not sure if this is /s or real.
gostsamo 1y ago
Copilot, ads, shit, copilot, telemetry, forced MS accounts, copilot, forced ms edge, copilot, forced obsolescence, copilot. I might be missing some other stuff like copilot and clean of shit versions like ltsc, but those are on the top of my head.
jdsully 1y ago
One word: Ads
eastbound 1y ago
Microsoft promised 10 was the last.
- tonyedgecombe 1y ago
  It was for me.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  * one Microsoft developer at a conference once
- pohl 1y ago
  I’m not in that ecosystem, so I missed that. How did they phrase that?
sibit 1y ago
I don't need a whole paragraph just: Copilot+ Recall.
nlawalker 1y ago
It's not already on my computer, and changing that will cost me money and time and is something that Microsoft promised we wouldn't have to do anymore when they sold us on 10.
geor9e 1y ago
You are misunderstanding. It's not I don't want Windows 11. For example, I have a pretty good gaming PC that plays Grand Theft Auto V at 4K and Elden Ring on low settings. It no longer gets security updates. Microsoft has made the arbitrary policy that this hardware is too old simply because it doesn't have TPM 2.0 Secure Boot, and a certain generation of Intel or AMD CPU. They have decided it should go to a landfill. Of course, I am more skilled than the average person, so I easily installed a hack to bypass these hardware requirements and get Windows 11 installed anyway. So I get security updates. But it's a matter of principle that I shouldn't have to use a hack. Also, a lot of these comments are misunderstanding the question. Recall, Copilot, and ads are not the reason most of these people are opting for Mac instead of Windows 11. It's because they cannot install it legitimately at all. Microsoft said you have to buy new hardware, so they're buying new hardware.
- kllrnohj 1y ago
  > Microsoft has made the arbitrary policy that this hardware is too old simply because it doesn't have TPM 2.0 Secure Boot There's stuff I don't like about Windows 11, but this feels kinda overblown. The hardware requirements are satisfied by almost anything from the last 10 years, which is still a decently generous support window. TPM 2.0 is probably worth requiring, not unlike the 64-bit migration back in the day.
  - jeroenhd 1y ago
    I have a PC with a 7700k that doesn't qualify despite running circles around the crappy Pentiums and Atoms that did get the ability to upgrade. I get that they don't want to support ancient hardware but a good amount of powerful CPUs in the Intel 6XXX and 7XXX series, as well as powerful first-gen Zen CPUs got cut off for no clear reason. As far as I can tell, Windows barely leverages the new features in TPM 2 for consumer versions and the code for TPM 1.2 still seems to be there. The intruction set also didn't meaningfully change, unless we're talking 2010 era chips. I'm not using Windows on that desktop anymore so I don't feel too bad about it, but I can easily give my PC to a relative if I get a new one and they'd be able to keep using it for five or six years when it comes to performance. The only real obstacle is software support.
kllrnohj 1y ago
They fiddled with the UI and people don't necessarily like it, including the loss of some features. A Microsoft account is now mandatory and they replaced the default local folders (docs, pictures, videos, etc...) with OneDrive. Hardware-wise a TPM is now mandatory, which means a lot of systems that could otherwise run it fine are locked out.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  FWIW TPMs have been in computers (processors) FIR years, but they were often disabled by default by motherboard vendors because they couldn't be arsed to test beyond the bare minimum Windows required. The move to TPM 2.0 made a lot of TPM-capable systems incompatible. Arbitrary CPU support also didn't help; there is no clear reason why some CPUs made the cut and others didn't. Seems like a mix between fTPM 2.0 support and SPECTRE hardware mitigations, but MS never really clarified what their actual reasons were.
vachina 1y ago
It offers no tangible improvement or new features over Windows 10 but uses 2x the computing power.
analog31 1y ago
I'm sure there will be many opinions, but here's mine. Win10 came with the computer that I chose for home use because it was a cheap refurb with a touch screen. It's fine. My workplace has switched to Win11 and it seems fine. I'm practically ambivalent about the "platform wars" because I rarely interact with the OS. I've read about issues such as: Growing amounts of telemetry. Requiring people to have a Microsoft account. Switching to subscription models for software. But I think a serious issue is that there's a lot of hardware out there, that's not technically obsolete, but won't run Win11 for whatever reason. Being forced to upgrade your hardware opens up your choices, and now this brings Apple into play. I'm in this boat, though for me, Ubuntu may also be in play. If I have to give up my touch screen, my options open up a lot. At my workplace, we were a Dell-only shop for many years, but now we offer either Dell or Apple. Even if only a percentage of people decide it's time to try Apple, that's still a lot of computers. Maybe something has changed that made it easier for corporate IT (at a F500 multinational) to support both platforms. My cube mate has a MacBook.
zyx321 1y ago
You must connect to the internet and connect your Microsoft account. There used to be a workaround using console commands, but that was removed recently. Without a cloud account, you are stuck on the OOBE setup screen.
- philwelch 1y ago
  There are still working workarounds, I have a local user account on my Windows 11 box.
delecti 1y ago
Windows used to be software you bought, and could use with a decent amount of control (obviously not at the level of linux). Windows 11 is a front-end to advertise Microsoft's cloud services. There are ads for them (and also other ads) throughout the OS, and you can't really easily escape the nudges to use them. It also needlessly removes a variety of customizability that has existed for decades; the taskbar is locked to the bottom of the screen, for example, while you could move it to the left/right/top of the screen on all Windows versions since 95. Being forced to use 11 at work convinced me to finally move to Linux at home. And for context, I was an early adopter of Vista, and remain a defender of it.
yard2010 1y ago
Ads everywhere.
ajkjk 1y ago
No respect for the user at all
ryandrake 1y ago
I object mostly to Microsoft's pushiness. At every turn, they're trying to nudge/coerce the user to do this and to do that. Example: "You should make a Microsoft account!" -> "You really need to make a Microsoft account." -> "Here's a full-screen Window begging you to make a Microsoft account, with a tiny skip button." -> "Here's a full-screen Window demanding you to make a Microsoft account, and if you want to skip it, you need to reboot and do this without a network connection." -> "You're going to make a Microsoft account if you want to use your computer. Just do it, asshole. (command line workaround)" -> "OK, fuckface, we tried the easy way, now we punish you with the hard way. Make that fucking Microsoft account whether you want it or not. I'm not fucking around anymore. YOU HAVE TO DO IT." You can see this progression with basically all of their unwanted features.
- notimetorelax 1y ago
  Don’t Apple and Google require their respective accounts for their platforms and hardware? How is this different?
  - exitb 1y ago
    Apple does not require it, although in case of iOS, having one for AppStore is the only way of installing apps.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  My experience with alternatives (macOS, ChromeOS) isn't that different once you get past the setup screen. The privacy implications of an Apple account are much smaller than those of a Microsoft account, though. It's a shame, really. Windows 11 has a whole bunch of nice-to-haves for development and gaming. They have one side making consistent improvements while the other makes the ecosystem as bad as they can.
jeroenhd 1y ago
For a lot of people it's no different from the upgrade from Windows 7, they just don't want change. The privacy invasions grew in Window 11 and the advertisement of Microsoft products increased quite a bit. The start menu now works better (opens every time you press the button, which I had issues with on Windows 10). Many people didn't get a choice to upgrade, which also pissed people off. For the more technical-minded, the mandatory Microsoft account also pissed a lot of people off. Haven't heard any complaints about that from people who can't name a preferred Linux distro, though.
Jare 1y ago
It's full of little quirks and annoyances in my experience. I find it gives me random problems a lot more often than Win10 or Linux gave me. Wifi connectivity, unable to wake from sleep, video playback causing flashes. Nothing constant but all frequent enough for me to really feel disappointed and annoyed. Windows 10 was absolutely rock solid for me. I don't particularly like the UI redesign but that's low on the list of problems. And I haven't been blasted with ads and AI things as other people report but maybe that stuff is all in the Home edition.

What’s a one paragraph explanation of why 11 is considered so much worse than 10 for someone who didn’t use Windows since 7?

by exitb 1y ago

What’s a one paragraph explanation of why 11 is considered so much worse than 10 for someone who didn’t use Windows since 7?

throwaway48476 1y ago

The start menu is now written in Javascript and horrifically slow.

wongogue 1y ago
To clarify: Not that it is any better — The recommended section which serves OneDrive files is a ReactNative component.
kristianp 1y ago
The start menu is already slow in Windows 10. I don't think that's new to Win 11.
commandersaki 1y ago
Not sure if this is /s or real.

gostsamo 1y ago

Copilot, ads, shit, copilot, telemetry, forced MS accounts, copilot, forced ms edge, copilot, forced obsolescence, copilot. I might be missing some other stuff like copilot and clean of shit versions like ltsc, but those are on the top of my head.

jdsully 1y ago

One word: Ads

eastbound 1y ago

Microsoft promised 10 was the last.

tonyedgecombe 1y ago
It was for me.
jeroenhd 1y ago
* one Microsoft developer at a conference once
pohl 1y ago
I’m not in that ecosystem, so I missed that. How did they phrase that?

sibit 1y ago

I don't need a whole paragraph just: Copilot+ Recall.

nlawalker 1y ago

It's not already on my computer, and changing that will cost me money and time and is something that Microsoft promised we wouldn't have to do anymore when they sold us on 10.

geor9e 1y ago

You are misunderstanding. It's not I don't want Windows 11. For example, I have a pretty good gaming PC that plays Grand Theft Auto V at 4K and Elden Ring on low settings. It no longer gets security updates. Microsoft has made the arbitrary policy that this hardware is too old simply because it doesn't have TPM 2.0 Secure Boot, and a certain generation of Intel or AMD CPU. They have decided it should go to a landfill. Of course, I am more skilled than the average person, so I easily installed a hack to bypass these hardware requirements and get Windows 11 installed anyway. So I get security updates. But it's a matter of principle that I shouldn't have to use a hack. Also, a lot of these comments are misunderstanding the question. Recall, Copilot, and ads are not the reason most of these people are opting for Mac instead of Windows 11. It's because they cannot install it legitimately at all. Microsoft said you have to buy new hardware, so they're buying new hardware.

kllrnohj 1y ago
> Microsoft has made the arbitrary policy that this hardware is too old simply because it doesn't have TPM 2.0 Secure Boot There's stuff I don't like about Windows 11, but this feels kinda overblown. The hardware requirements are satisfied by almost anything from the last 10 years, which is still a decently generous support window. TPM 2.0 is probably worth requiring, not unlike the 64-bit migration back in the day.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  I have a PC with a 7700k that doesn't qualify despite running circles around the crappy Pentiums and Atoms that did get the ability to upgrade. I get that they don't want to support ancient hardware but a good amount of powerful CPUs in the Intel 6XXX and 7XXX series, as well as powerful first-gen Zen CPUs got cut off for no clear reason. As far as I can tell, Windows barely leverages the new features in TPM 2 for consumer versions and the code for TPM 1.2 still seems to be there. The intruction set also didn't meaningfully change, unless we're talking 2010 era chips. I'm not using Windows on that desktop anymore so I don't feel too bad about it, but I can easily give my PC to a relative if I get a new one and they'd be able to keep using it for five or six years when it comes to performance. The only real obstacle is software support.

kllrnohj 1y ago

They fiddled with the UI and people don't necessarily like it, including the loss of some features. A Microsoft account is now mandatory and they replaced the default local folders (docs, pictures, videos, etc...) with OneDrive. Hardware-wise a TPM is now mandatory, which means a lot of systems that could otherwise run it fine are locked out.

jeroenhd 1y ago
FWIW TPMs have been in computers (processors) FIR years, but they were often disabled by default by motherboard vendors because they couldn't be arsed to test beyond the bare minimum Windows required. The move to TPM 2.0 made a lot of TPM-capable systems incompatible. Arbitrary CPU support also didn't help; there is no clear reason why some CPUs made the cut and others didn't. Seems like a mix between fTPM 2.0 support and SPECTRE hardware mitigations, but MS never really clarified what their actual reasons were.

vachina 1y ago

It offers no tangible improvement or new features over Windows 10 but uses 2x the computing power.

analog31 1y ago

I'm sure there will be many opinions, but here's mine. Win10 came with the computer that I chose for home use because it was a cheap refurb with a touch screen. It's fine. My workplace has switched to Win11 and it seems fine. I'm practically ambivalent about the "platform wars" because I rarely interact with the OS. I've read about issues such as: Growing amounts of telemetry. Requiring people to have a Microsoft account. Switching to subscription models for software. But I think a serious issue is that there's a lot of hardware out there, that's not technically obsolete, but won't run Win11 for whatever reason. Being forced to upgrade your hardware opens up your choices, and now this brings Apple into play. I'm in this boat, though for me, Ubuntu may also be in play. If I have to give up my touch screen, my options open up a lot. At my workplace, we were a Dell-only shop for many years, but now we offer either Dell or Apple. Even if only a percentage of people decide it's time to try Apple, that's still a lot of computers. Maybe something has changed that made it easier for corporate IT (at a F500 multinational) to support both platforms. My cube mate has a MacBook.

zyx321 1y ago

You must connect to the internet and connect your Microsoft account. There used to be a workaround using console commands, but that was removed recently. Without a cloud account, you are stuck on the OOBE setup screen.

philwelch 1y ago
There are still working workarounds, I have a local user account on my Windows 11 box.

delecti 1y ago

Windows used to be software you bought, and could use with a decent amount of control (obviously not at the level of linux). Windows 11 is a front-end to advertise Microsoft's cloud services. There are ads for them (and also other ads) throughout the OS, and you can't really easily escape the nudges to use them. It also needlessly removes a variety of customizability that has existed for decades; the taskbar is locked to the bottom of the screen, for example, while you could move it to the left/right/top of the screen on all Windows versions since 95. Being forced to use 11 at work convinced me to finally move to Linux at home. And for context, I was an early adopter of Vista, and remain a defender of it.

yard2010 1y ago

Ads everywhere.

ajkjk 1y ago

No respect for the user at all

ryandrake 1y ago

I object mostly to Microsoft's pushiness. At every turn, they're trying to nudge/coerce the user to do this and to do that. Example: "You should make a Microsoft account!" -> "You really need to make a Microsoft account." -> "Here's a full-screen Window begging you to make a Microsoft account, with a tiny skip button." -> "Here's a full-screen Window demanding you to make a Microsoft account, and if you want to skip it, you need to reboot and do this without a network connection." -> "You're going to make a Microsoft account if you want to use your computer. Just do it, asshole. (command line workaround)" -> "OK, fuckface, we tried the easy way, now we punish you with the hard way. Make that fucking Microsoft account whether you want it or not. I'm not fucking around anymore. YOU HAVE TO DO IT." You can see this progression with basically all of their unwanted features.

notimetorelax 1y ago
Don’t Apple and Google require their respective accounts for their platforms and hardware? How is this different?
- exitb 1y ago
  Apple does not require it, although in case of iOS, having one for AppStore is the only way of installing apps.
jeroenhd 1y ago
My experience with alternatives (macOS, ChromeOS) isn't that different once you get past the setup screen. The privacy implications of an Apple account are much smaller than those of a Microsoft account, though. It's a shame, really. Windows 11 has a whole bunch of nice-to-haves for development and gaming. They have one side making consistent improvements while the other makes the ecosystem as bad as they can.

jeroenhd 1y ago

For a lot of people it's no different from the upgrade from Windows 7, they just don't want change. The privacy invasions grew in Window 11 and the advertisement of Microsoft products increased quite a bit. The start menu now works better (opens every time you press the button, which I had issues with on Windows 10). Many people didn't get a choice to upgrade, which also pissed people off. For the more technical-minded, the mandatory Microsoft account also pissed a lot of people off. Haven't heard any complaints about that from people who can't name a preferred Linux distro, though.

Jare 1y ago

It's full of little quirks and annoyances in my experience. I find it gives me random problems a lot more often than Win10 or Linux gave me. Wifi connectivity, unable to wake from sleep, video playback causing flashes. Nothing constant but all frequent enough for me to really feel disappointed and annoyed. Windows 10 was absolutely rock solid for me. I don't particularly like the UI redesign but that's low on the list of problems. And I haven't been blasted with ads and AI things as other people report but maybe that stuff is all in the Home edition.