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> Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I am not denying you anything. If you choose to believe in mind-body duali

> Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I am not denying you anything. If you choose to believe in mind-body dualism you're free to do so, but this belief that you have agency which is completely independent of your physiology goes against everything we know about our brains and addiction. Dualism is what's behind harmful attitudes towards addiction and every other psychological disorder. People use the same exact reasoning to delegitimize depression, ADHD, anxiety, or whatever else they can use to feel superior. > I am certainty not dyed in the wool conservative either. You just don't know what you are talking about tbh. Yeah, sure, whatever you say.

cyberpunk 1y ago
So your argument is that smokers and obese people have literally no control over their consumption because of non-duality? I mean, I’m a buddhist, I probably have a stronger sense of non-duality than most and that’s just horseshit unless I misunderstood you. edit: this is like saying rapists aren’t responsible for their crimes because they had a physiological response to seeing someone they found attractive. Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline.
- dns_snek 1y ago
  No, I'm saying that, to a very significant degree, our behavior is driven by physiological processes inside of our brains, and overcoming these can be extremely difficult. If people could just choose not to eat then they wouldn't be obese to begin with. You would know if you ever experienced depression, ADHD, or any other disorder takes away your executive function. I take it you don't consider these to be real disorders? > Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline. Re: Discipline: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667
  - cyberpunk 1y ago
    Oh no I think they’re real, but I also I think the proportion of people who genuinely have no control over these parameters is vanishingly small. In all things, generalisation is probably too blunt, but removing the agency from everyone, turning them into victims of their own brain chemistry and advancing the narrative that they can’t possibly change their situation does them far more harm than good. Even depression, there are things which you can do to overcome it. I’m not saying it’s easy, but you seem to be arguing it’s impossible.
    - dns_snek 1y ago
      Stop painting everything so black & white. I am not arguing that it's impossible, nor that people have "no control" over anything. I am arguing that it's difficult and that it's ignorant and harmful to paint their problems as just "lack of discipline". The problem is that dualists (like the person I originally responded to) assume that willpower is separate from physiology, therefore what's easy for them should be easy for others, and therefore if others can't achieve the same things they are achieving then they must be lazy, lack discipline, and don't deserve additional help or compassion. These sorts of ignorant beliefs then shape policy and make it harder for people to get help to deal with their problems, perpetuating the cycle, for example the rather famous failure of "the war on drugs". That's the only thing I'm arguing - that people need to accept that addiction is a complex and individual health problem and to start treating it as such, it's the only way we're going to move forward.
      - cyberpunk 1y ago
        Of course it’s difficult. Do you think having drive enough to overcome an addiction, or fight to change your situation is simply “easy” if you have discipline? What kind of argument is that? You need discipline precisely because things are difficult, I don’t really see where we disagree on this.
        dns_snek 1y ago
        You continue to assume that discipline is something you innately have or don't have as part of your character/soul/whatever you want to call it, independent of your body and brain chemistry, that's where we disagree. The way people judge "effort" and "difficulty" is broken, that's part of the problem. Whether you have or lack discipline is judged by the outcome, not by the effort that person made because the effort is invisible to the outside world. Person A quits smoking (with 1 unit of effort), therefore they have "discipline" Person B fails to quit smoking (with 10 units of effort), therefore they're judged to "lack discipline".
- ileonichwiesz 1y ago
  > Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline. Okay, but where do you think that discipline comes from? Is it an inherent quality that a person is born with? I’d argue that it’s not, and it’s something that needs to be learned and exercised. Many people didn’t get the opportunity to learn it (yet?), and I don’t believe it makes them somehow inferior.
  - cyberpunk 1y ago
    I don’t think it’s in inherent quality either. Why do some people decide to put the cake down and hit the weights and others don’t? I don’t know, all i’m saying is the option existed for both and in the end it’s a choice.
FlameRobot 1y ago
> I am not denying you anything. You are. No ifs, not buts. > If you choose to believe in mind-body dualism you're free to do so, but this belief that you have agency which is completely independent of your physiology goes against everything we know about our brains and addiction. This is classic over-intellectualising that often done by people, often to "win" an argument. I never denied that the body itself can become dependant on substances and affect choices. That is obvious. The point is that people have their own agency. I had to accept I had an issue and decided to face up reality, everything after that was relatively straight forward IME. This process took a year, so it wasn't like I woke up one morning and my mind was changed. > Yeah, sure, whatever you say. You are trying to latch onto anything to invalidate my point of view on the matter, based on an incorrect preconceptions of my beliefs. Which is unfortunate. The fact is that moral judgements made by people are often for very good reasons. Even if they can't verbalise them effectively. Rather than dismissing them because you politically disagree with them, it is often worth finding out why they exist. https://theknowledge.io/chestertons-fence-explained/ https://theknowledge.io/chestertons-fence-explained/
- dns_snek 1y ago
  > This is classic over-intellectualising that often done by people, often to "win" an argument. No, this is well-established scientific understanding of how our body and brain work. Our bodies/brains have extremely strong control over our minds. If they didn't, the entire field of psychiatry couldn't exist to treat them. > I never denied that the body itself can become dependant on substances and affect choices. This applies to many behaviors that have nothing to do with substance abuse, physical dependence or withdrawals, e.g. those resulting from depression and ADHD.
  - FlameRobot 1y ago
    > No, this is well-established scientific understanding of how our body and brain work. Our bodies/brains have extremely strong control over our minds. Yes you are. Ultimately you have to want to quit. That is a decision made by me. That requires my own agency. From your jab earlier about my apparent "conservationism" (like that would matter at all), you've lost any good will I may of had with you in this discussion. > Our bodies/brains have extremely strong control over our minds. Brain / Mind are synonyms for the most. I don't even think you know what you are saying. > If they didn't, the entire field of psychiatry couldn't exist to treat them. I think psychiatry can help some people. However it isn't the be all and end all of how deal with addiction or the human condition in general. > This applies to many behaviors that have nothing to do with substance abuse, physical dependence or withdrawals, e.g. those resulting from depression and ADHD. Obviously. That doesn't mean that addicts don't have agency.

cyberpunk 1y ago

So your argument is that smokers and obese people have literally no control over their consumption because of non-duality? I mean, I’m a buddhist, I probably have a stronger sense of non-duality than most and that’s just horseshit unless I misunderstood you. edit: this is like saying rapists aren’t responsible for their crimes because they had a physiological response to seeing someone they found attractive. Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline.

dns_snek 1y ago
No, I'm saying that, to a very significant degree, our behavior is driven by physiological processes inside of our brains, and overcoming these can be extremely difficult. If people could just choose not to eat then they wouldn't be obese to begin with. You would know if you ever experienced depression, ADHD, or any other disorder takes away your executive function. I take it you don't consider these to be real disorders? > Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline. Re: Discipline: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667
- cyberpunk 1y ago
  Oh no I think they’re real, but I also I think the proportion of people who genuinely have no control over these parameters is vanishingly small. In all things, generalisation is probably too blunt, but removing the agency from everyone, turning them into victims of their own brain chemistry and advancing the narrative that they can’t possibly change their situation does them far more harm than good. Even depression, there are things which you can do to overcome it. I’m not saying it’s easy, but you seem to be arguing it’s impossible.
  - dns_snek 1y ago
    Stop painting everything so black & white. I am not arguing that it's impossible, nor that people have "no control" over anything. I am arguing that it's difficult and that it's ignorant and harmful to paint their problems as just "lack of discipline". The problem is that dualists (like the person I originally responded to) assume that willpower is separate from physiology, therefore what's easy for them should be easy for others, and therefore if others can't achieve the same things they are achieving then they must be lazy, lack discipline, and don't deserve additional help or compassion. These sorts of ignorant beliefs then shape policy and make it harder for people to get help to deal with their problems, perpetuating the cycle, for example the rather famous failure of "the war on drugs". That's the only thing I'm arguing - that people need to accept that addiction is a complex and individual health problem and to start treating it as such, it's the only way we're going to move forward.
    - cyberpunk 1y ago
      Of course it’s difficult. Do you think having drive enough to overcome an addiction, or fight to change your situation is simply “easy” if you have discipline? What kind of argument is that? You need discipline precisely because things are difficult, I don’t really see where we disagree on this.
      - dns_snek 1y ago
        You continue to assume that discipline is something you innately have or don't have as part of your character/soul/whatever you want to call it, independent of your body and brain chemistry, that's where we disagree. The way people judge "effort" and "difficulty" is broken, that's part of the problem. Whether you have or lack discipline is judged by the outcome, not by the effort that person made because the effort is invisible to the outside world. Person A quits smoking (with 1 unit of effort), therefore they have "discipline" Person B fails to quit smoking (with 10 units of effort), therefore they're judged to "lack discipline".
ileonichwiesz 1y ago
> Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline. Okay, but where do you think that discipline comes from? Is it an inherent quality that a person is born with? I’d argue that it’s not, and it’s something that needs to be learned and exercised. Many people didn’t get the opportunity to learn it (yet?), and I don’t believe it makes them somehow inferior.
- cyberpunk 1y ago
  I don’t think it’s in inherent quality either. Why do some people decide to put the cake down and hit the weights and others don’t? I don’t know, all i’m saying is the option existed for both and in the end it’s a choice.

FlameRobot 1y ago

> I am not denying you anything. You are. No ifs, not buts. > If you choose to believe in mind-body dualism you're free to do so, but this belief that you have agency which is completely independent of your physiology goes against everything we know about our brains and addiction. This is classic over-intellectualising that often done by people, often to "win" an argument. I never denied that the body itself can become dependant on substances and affect choices. That is obvious. The point is that people have their own agency. I had to accept I had an issue and decided to face up reality, everything after that was relatively straight forward IME. This process took a year, so it wasn't like I woke up one morning and my mind was changed. > Yeah, sure, whatever you say. You are trying to latch onto anything to invalidate my point of view on the matter, based on an incorrect preconceptions of my beliefs. Which is unfortunate. The fact is that moral judgements made by people are often for very good reasons. Even if they can't verbalise them effectively. Rather than dismissing them because you politically disagree with them, it is often worth finding out why they exist. https://theknowledge.io/chestertons-fence-explained/ https://theknowledge.io/chestertons-fence-explained/

dns_snek 1y ago
> This is classic over-intellectualising that often done by people, often to "win" an argument. No, this is well-established scientific understanding of how our body and brain work. Our bodies/brains have extremely strong control over our minds. If they didn't, the entire field of psychiatry couldn't exist to treat them. > I never denied that the body itself can become dependant on substances and affect choices. This applies to many behaviors that have nothing to do with substance abuse, physical dependence or withdrawals, e.g. those resulting from depression and ADHD.
- FlameRobot 1y ago
  > No, this is well-established scientific understanding of how our body and brain work. Our bodies/brains have extremely strong control over our minds. Yes you are. Ultimately you have to want to quit. That is a decision made by me. That requires my own agency. From your jab earlier about my apparent "conservationism" (like that would matter at all), you've lost any good will I may of had with you in this discussion. > Our bodies/brains have extremely strong control over our minds. Brain / Mind are synonyms for the most. I don't even think you know what you are saying. > If they didn't, the entire field of psychiatry couldn't exist to treat them. I think psychiatry can help some people. However it isn't the be all and end all of how deal with addiction or the human condition in general. > This applies to many behaviors that have nothing to do with substance abuse, physical dependence or withdrawals, e.g. those resulting from depression and ADHD. Obviously. That doesn't mean that addicts don't have agency.