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> Of course, but that doesn't mean that you had a real choice. Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I cured my a

> Of course, but that doesn't mean that you had a real choice. Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I cured my addiction by simply not buying alcohol and abstaining. That was a choice I could have made at any point in the past. There are people that can drink responsibly. I am not one of those people. I made the responsible choice as an adult, to abstain from it. I don't miss it either BTW. I feel actually free. > What would've happened if you didn't go - physically, psychologically, emotionally? I'm not looking for an answer, it's just worth thinking about. I would have a lot more money, I wouldn't have got into stupid situations, some which I almost got myself killed, I wouldn't have had to spend 5 years rebuilding my career. > Are you being forced to eat, drink, breathe? Can you choose not to, and for how long before you can't take it anymore and relent? The comparison you are making here is asinine. > It's so easy for people to cast swift moral judgement over other people's "choices", simply because they happen to enjoy a mixture of brain chemicals that is more conducive to behavior that they see as morally righteous, and they assume that everyone else has it as easy as they do - physiologically speaking. You should be careful not to internalize that. The moral judgement is often painted by some as subjective. A lot of the times it can be, but very often it simply isn't. There are good reasons it is correct for people to judge someone poorly because they abuse drugs or alcohol. It isn't just the fact that they are making different choice that they disapprove of, it is the behaviour and consequences of that behaviour. This behaviour is frequently at best makes the person difficult to deal with, and at worst anti-social and dangerous and can often have dire consequences. That is simply a fact. Those people are correct to judge those people poorly. I am certainty not dyed in the wool conservative either. You just don't know what you are talking about tbh.

dns_snek 11mo ago
> Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I am not denying you anything. If you choose to believe in mind-body dualism you're free to do so, but this belief that you have agency which is completely independent of your physiology goes against everything we know about our brains and addiction. Dualism is what's behind harmful attitudes towards addiction and every other psychological disorder. People use the same exact reasoning to delegitimize depression, ADHD, anxiety, or whatever else they can use to feel superior. > I am certainty not dyed in the wool conservative either. You just don't know what you are talking about tbh. Yeah, sure, whatever you say.
- cyberpunk 11mo ago
  So your argument is that smokers and obese people have literally no control over their consumption because of non-duality? I mean, I’m a buddhist, I probably have a stronger sense of non-duality than most and that’s just horseshit unless I misunderstood you. edit: this is like saying rapists aren’t responsible for their crimes because they had a physiological response to seeing someone they found attractive. Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline.
  - dns_snek 11mo ago
    No, I'm saying that, to a very significant degree, our behavior is driven by physiological processes inside of our brains, and overcoming these can be extremely difficult. If people could just choose not to eat then they wouldn't be obese to begin with. You would know if you ever experienced depression, ADHD, or any other disorder takes away your executive function. I take it you don't consider these to be real disorders? > Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline. Re: Discipline: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667
    - cyberpunk 11mo ago
      Oh no I think they’re real, but I also I think the proportion of people who genuinely have no control over these parameters is vanishingly small. In all things, generalisation is probably too blunt, but removing the agency from everyone, turning them into victims of their own brain chemistry and advancing the narrative that they can’t possibly change their situation does them far more harm than good. Even depression, there are things which you can do to overcome it. I’m not saying it’s easy, but you seem to be arguing it’s impossible.
      - dns_snek 11mo ago
        Stop painting everything so black & white. I am not arguing that it's impossible, nor that people have "no control" over anything. I am arguing that it's difficult and that it's ignorant and harmful to paint their problems as just "lack of discipline". The problem is that dualists (like the person I originally responded to) assume that willpower is separate from physiology, therefore what's easy for them should be easy for others, and therefore if others can't achieve the same things they are achieving then they must be lazy, lack discipline, and don't deserve additional help or compassion. These sorts of ignorant beliefs then shape policy and make it harder for people to get help to deal with their problems, perpetuating the cycle, for example the rather famous failure of "the war on drugs". That's the only thing I'm arguing - that people need to accept that addiction is a complex and individual health problem and to start treating it as such, it's the only way we're going to move forward.
cyberpunk 11mo ago
There seems to be a strong culture towards removing agency from people and allowing them to escape any form of judgement on the consequences of their actions. Sure, maybe some people really do have thyroid problems; but this idea that overweight people are somehow not responsible for their own condition is ridiculous and dangerous. I had drug and alcohol problems in the past, it was my own choice, and my own choice to get out of that situation. I smoked, I chose to stop. I was unfit due to laziness, and I fixed that too. None of those situations were the result of anything other than personal choice.
- ileonichwiesz 11mo ago
  > Sure, maybe some people really do have thyroid problems; but this idea that overweight people are somehow not responsible for their own condition is ridiculous and dangerous. You’re not wrong, but I think you’re missing the bigger picture. These are systemic issues, and solving them on an individual level can only go so far. People are responsible for their own health, but we also live in a world where billions of dollars are spent on marketing and lobbying to get them addicted to junk food and make it the easiest choice. It’s still a choice, but the game is rigged. “Just decide to stop” may have worked for you - it worked for me, too! - but on a societal level you need societal change. A lot fewer people smoke today than just a couple decades ago - not because everyone has individually somehow built up stronger willpower, but because of legislation that made tobacco harder to market, more expensive, and forbidden in many public spaces.
- viraptor 11mo ago
  It doesn't have to be one extreme or another. But we already learned that there's a decent chemical component to addictions of many kinds. GLP1 significantly lowers drugs, alcohol, tobacco and other cravings in many people with addictive behaviours. So it's neither completely a choice nor completely body driven.
- immibis 11mo ago
  Suppose that I discover a chemical combination that causes people to eat more. I arrange with all the biggest food manufacturers to put this in all their food. People eat lots and get fat. Whose fault is it?

dns_snek 11mo ago

> Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I am not denying you anything. If you choose to believe in mind-body dualism you're free to do so, but this belief that you have agency which is completely independent of your physiology goes against everything we know about our brains and addiction. Dualism is what's behind harmful attitudes towards addiction and every other psychological disorder. People use the same exact reasoning to delegitimize depression, ADHD, anxiety, or whatever else they can use to feel superior. > I am certainty not dyed in the wool conservative either. You just don't know what you are talking about tbh. Yeah, sure, whatever you say.

cyberpunk 11mo ago
So your argument is that smokers and obese people have literally no control over their consumption because of non-duality? I mean, I’m a buddhist, I probably have a stronger sense of non-duality than most and that’s just horseshit unless I misunderstood you. edit: this is like saying rapists aren’t responsible for their crimes because they had a physiological response to seeing someone they found attractive. Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline.
- dns_snek 11mo ago
  No, I'm saying that, to a very significant degree, our behavior is driven by physiological processes inside of our brains, and overcoming these can be extremely difficult. If people could just choose not to eat then they wouldn't be obese to begin with. You would know if you ever experienced depression, ADHD, or any other disorder takes away your executive function. I take it you don't consider these to be real disorders? > Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline. Re: Discipline: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667
  - cyberpunk 11mo ago
    Oh no I think they’re real, but I also I think the proportion of people who genuinely have no control over these parameters is vanishingly small. In all things, generalisation is probably too blunt, but removing the agency from everyone, turning them into victims of their own brain chemistry and advancing the narrative that they can’t possibly change their situation does them far more harm than good. Even depression, there are things which you can do to overcome it. I’m not saying it’s easy, but you seem to be arguing it’s impossible.
    - dns_snek 11mo ago
      Stop painting everything so black & white. I am not arguing that it's impossible, nor that people have "no control" over anything. I am arguing that it's difficult and that it's ignorant and harmful to paint their problems as just "lack of discipline". The problem is that dualists (like the person I originally responded to) assume that willpower is separate from physiology, therefore what's easy for them should be easy for others, and therefore if others can't achieve the same things they are achieving then they must be lazy, lack discipline, and don't deserve additional help or compassion. These sorts of ignorant beliefs then shape policy and make it harder for people to get help to deal with their problems, perpetuating the cycle, for example the rather famous failure of "the war on drugs". That's the only thing I'm arguing - that people need to accept that addiction is a complex and individual health problem and to start treating it as such, it's the only way we're going to move forward.

cyberpunk 11mo ago

There seems to be a strong culture towards removing agency from people and allowing them to escape any form of judgement on the consequences of their actions. Sure, maybe some people really do have thyroid problems; but this idea that overweight people are somehow not responsible for their own condition is ridiculous and dangerous. I had drug and alcohol problems in the past, it was my own choice, and my own choice to get out of that situation. I smoked, I chose to stop. I was unfit due to laziness, and I fixed that too. None of those situations were the result of anything other than personal choice.

ileonichwiesz 11mo ago
> Sure, maybe some people really do have thyroid problems; but this idea that overweight people are somehow not responsible for their own condition is ridiculous and dangerous. You’re not wrong, but I think you’re missing the bigger picture. These are systemic issues, and solving them on an individual level can only go so far. People are responsible for their own health, but we also live in a world where billions of dollars are spent on marketing and lobbying to get them addicted to junk food and make it the easiest choice. It’s still a choice, but the game is rigged. “Just decide to stop” may have worked for you - it worked for me, too! - but on a societal level you need societal change. A lot fewer people smoke today than just a couple decades ago - not because everyone has individually somehow built up stronger willpower, but because of legislation that made tobacco harder to market, more expensive, and forbidden in many public spaces.
viraptor 11mo ago
It doesn't have to be one extreme or another. But we already learned that there's a decent chemical component to addictions of many kinds. GLP1 significantly lowers drugs, alcohol, tobacco and other cravings in many people with addictive behaviours. So it's neither completely a choice nor completely body driven.
immibis 11mo ago
Suppose that I discover a chemical combination that causes people to eat more. I arrange with all the biggest food manufacturers to put this in all their food. People eat lots and get fat. Whose fault is it?