5 ms·
A bit of a tengent, but... For those worrying about their eyesight when getting older... If you are into FLOSS, one last defense against your eyes failing when
by lynx97 1y ago
A bit of a tengent, but... For those worrying about their eyesight when getting older... If you are into FLOSS, one last defense against your eyes failing when you get older is actually to contribute to accessibility before you (hopefully never) end up needing it.
Disclaimer: I am blind myself.
- inglor_cz 1y agoWhat do you think about the recent "People with blindness" obsession, as evidenced in the title? I am not blind nor deaf etc., but I am frankly fed up with it. In my case, should I call myself "a person with programming, Czechness and fortysomething years"? Nope, I am a middle-aged Czech programmer. Yes, that does not reflect my entire personality and humanity. So what. Better than this sort of language abuse.
- wizzwizz4 1y agoIt shortcuts the American tendency to turn all disability-related nouns into slurs. (I found out a few weeks ago that "deaf-mute" is a slur in the States.) That's the major advantage, as far as I can tell.
- kingkawn 1y agoDeaf-mute is not a slur in the US
- wizzwizz4 1y agoWikipedia says it is, citing the National Association of the Deaf's Community and Culture FAQ (among others). If you have sources that say otherwise, that suggests a NPOV issue with the "Deaf-mute" Wikipedia article.
- bigstrat2003 1y agoWikipedia is dead wrong. I have never, ever, even in the most obscure context, heard it used as a slur.
- wizzwizz4 1y agoNeither have I – but Wikipedia also cites the OED (paywalled, so I can't confirm this). If the OED really says that deaf-mute is used as a slur, then I believe it. Again, if you have positive evidence that deaf-mute is not used as a slur, then please correct the Wikipedia article.
- marky1991 1y agoAs a us person, I don't even know what deaf-mute means? (Is it deaf and mute? Like Helen Keller?) I've literally never heard the word used in my life. But I'm sure basically any word has been used as an insult in some context, that doesn't mean it's useful to consider all such usage as such.
- wizzwizz4 1y agoHelen Keller was deaf-blind but not mute: she gave many of the speeches she wrote, although she never got her speech as clear as she would've liked. (See e.g. https://redirect.invidious.io/watch?v=8ch_H8pt9M8&t=124 https://redirect.invidious.io/watch?v=8ch_H8pt9M8&t=124) Despite what the National Association of the Deaf's Community and Culture FAQ claims, deaf people can learn to speak: it's just a lot harder, since they have to approach it as an applied articulatory phonetics exercise. (Helen Keller used the Tadoma method to get information that a sighted deaf person might get visually: https://redirect.invidious.io/watch?v=GzlriQv16gg https://redirect.invidious.io/watch?v=GzlriQv16gg) If you're neither a bigot nor a member of a minority group, you're unlikely to be familiar with the slurs used against members of that group. And, of course, different cultures have different slurs. The fact we've never observed these words being used as slurs doesn't mean they aren't predominately used that way, in certain cultures.
- kelipso 1y agoYou are just making things up and asking people to prove otherwise it seems like. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf-mute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf-mute you have > Some consider it to be a derogatory term if used outside its historical context; the preferred term today is simply deaf.[2] which refers to Moore, Matthew S. & Levitan, Linda (2003). For Hearing People Only, Answers to Some of the Most Commonly Asked Questions About the Deaf Community, its Culture, and the "Deaf Reality", Rochester, New York: Deaf Life Press and I am not reading that or considering it authoritative. From 2nd ed OED you have, deaf-mute, a., n. [After F. sourd-muet.] a. Deaf and dumb. b. One who is deaf and dumb. 1837 Penny Cycl. VIII. 322/2 s.v. Deaf and Dumb, In all these conditions of deafness, the person is consequently mute, or dumb. Hence the expression Deaf-Mute, as used in the continental languages, and Deaf and Dumb, as used in England and America. 1865 New Syd. Soc. Year-Bk. for 1864. 479 A deaf-mute child. 1881 H. James Portr. Lady xxv, He might as well address her in the deaf-mute's alphabet. Hence ˈdeaf-ˈmuteness, ˈdeaf-ˈmutism, the condition of a deaf-mute. 1874 H. R. Reynolds John Bapt, ii. 109 The deaf-muteness of Zacharias. 1865 New Syd. Soc. Year-Bk. for 1864. 318 Congenital deaf-mutism. 1874 Roosa Dis. Ear 515 Deaf-muteism is caused by diseases of the middle and internal ears. 1884 A. J. Ellis in Athenæum 12 Jan. 55/2 This art [of lip-reading], the keystone of the modern bridge from deaf-mutism to deaf sociality. which doesn’t indicate derogatory. Plus I have never heard it used in a derogatory manner. Also from an argument or debate perspective, when stating something improbable, you should not be asking people to prove improbable things wrong and instead should be showing the proof of improbable things yourself
- nemo44x 1y agoThere’s a few nut-jobs in the deaf community that cause a lot of trouble. The same people that are against “curing deafness” because to them deafness isn’t disability to be cured and any work towards that is an insult to them. Not worth listening (ha!) to them and things like Wikipedia are just an outcome of their pressure campaigns.
- wizzwizz4 1y agoThis sounds like a NPOV issue. If you have any citations to support this, please edit Wikipedia.
- kingkawn 1y agoThat’s cute and it may be convenient for their advocacy to assert so but nobody actually says this ever
- 542458 1y agoI’d argue that a plain-English reading is actually the other way around. A “person with a car” is a normal descriptor, a “car person” is somebody for whom cars are a major life fixture. So accordingly I feel that “blind person” makes it more… conclusive? all encompassing? than “person with blindness”.
- luckylion 1y ago"blind" isn't a noun though. "a noun person" is what you mentioned, but "an adjective person" is different. A tall person isn't all about their height, they're just way above average in height. "A person with tallness" would emphasize the height aspect in a strange way.
- muststopmyths 1y agoIn TFA it could be as simple as trying to differentiate between fully "blind" people vs people with MACD (or other severe visual impairments as indicated at the end) i.e, people with a condition that leads to blindness, full or partial.
- LeroyRaz 1y agoYou make a completely false equvilance. A car person would be some kind of car person hybrid if you read it literally. Car person is acting as a short hand for "Car obsessed person." Car is a noun, blind is an adjective, etc...
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- pcthrowaway 1y agoTo tag onto this, how do you feel about using "blind" in the figurative sense? Like "People born with various kinds of privilege are often blind to the ways they subtly benefit from that privilege on a daily basis"
- lynx97 1y agoWell, it's not always nice to realize that your condition is casually used as a negative conotation in everyday language. OTOH, there are worse things in life, so I mostly blink and move on... There are other hills to die on.
- lynx97 1y agoSince you ask... I am find as long as blind is actually used. I dont particular care about the order of words. However, what I absolutely despise and truely hate is this "visually challenged" nonesense from the leftist language police.
- lynx97 1y agoNah, its only perceived as a slur by language police people with little stakes in the actual game. And, the slur thing is definitely not an US only phenomenon. In the german speaking area where I dwell, the youth use "spast" as a general derogatory term for everyone they dont like or perceive as "below" them. That is definitely a slur that went rogue.
- lynx97 1y agoAhh, and to the language police people who downvote my POV: You are the problem. Stop patronising us.
- jzb 1y agoIsn’t “visually challenged” (or similar) a useful term for people who have visual impairments, but aren’t technically blind? Do you have the same objection to, say, “visually impaired” if a person is trying to talk about all people with various vision problems, up to being fully blind? If those are unacceptable, what would you use in that case?
- lynx97 1y agoIt's an attempt to whitewash the issues, and not use words which imply real problems. I prefer visually impared, however, in the US, legally blind basically says the same thing. My gf (blind herself) recently met a teacher on a train, who told her she is working with her class to find a new word to replace "disabled". IMO, just so that she doesn't have to deal with reality. And, mind you, no disabled person around... It is just sad what some people are doing on "behalf of us", just so they don't have to grapple with the fact that some people have a harsh life. It is hard to explain the sadness, as I also have a language barrier, english being my second language. However, believe me, I virtually know no disabled person who likes these language games. If we are amongst each other, we all agree this patronising is sad and should stop.
- squigz 1y ago> What do you think about the recent "People with blindness" obsession, as evidenced in the title? Is there really an "obsession"? Also, while I don't deny there's some discussion here, I think you really have to squint to read the title in such a way. In any case, I ... really don't care. As another commenter says, there are other, bigger, more important hills to die on than getting worked up about people trying to be more inclusive with their language. Does it take anything away from me or minimize my disability when I'm referred to as a "blind person" vs a "person with blindness"? Not at all. So why does it matter? And to be honest, I've never once met a blind person (or autistic person) who actually cares about this type of wording. I think this is one of those battles being fought by the extremes on either side, and it's frustrating and exhausting for everyone else, because it's a distraction from the real issues. And you can see this right in this comment! > I am not blind nor deaf etc., but I am frankly fed up with it. You're "frankly fed up" with something that barely affects you at all. Why?
- kelnos 1y ago> Is there really an "obsession"? Not sure that specific phrase is an obsession, but I hear a lot of language-police-type people who try to shame others into changing some phrases like this. The one I hear most often where I live is to use "person experiencing homelessness" rather than "homeless person", the idea being to not to consider "homeless" as a part of their identity, but to acknowledge that it's a (hopefully) temporary situation they have found themselves in. I get what people are trying to do here, but I think it's unnecessary, and just increases people's cognitive load and adds verbosity to expression. And gives disingenuous people more ammunition to derail discussions. And as you say, it seems like most of the people pushing for things like this haven't even talked to a blind/disabled/homeless person to ask what language offends them. I don't know any blind people, but the people I've talked to with various disabilities had no issues with being called "disabled". > You're "frankly fed up" with something that barely affects you at all. Why? Not the person you're replying to, but I assume the problem is that other people often shame or "correct" them when they use the "wrong" terminology, which is not only annoying, but can even cause real-world problems (e.g.: use the "wrong" term at work and maybe your career prospects get worse).
- inglor_cz 1y ago
- BurningFrog 1y agoIt's a remnant of the woke era, and I expect and hope it will go the way of Latinx. The (foolish) idea was that the word "blind" has a negative charge, so if we replace it with another word the stigma will go away, and blind people can feel better. But of course, any stigma comes from the blindness itself. Any replacement term will get the same stigma, and will then need to be replaced. Stephen Pinker called it "The Euphemism Treadmill" in 1994, and that term has never been replaced: https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyorktimes.pdf https://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/1994_04_03_newyo...
- squigz 1y agoThe idea of replacing "blind people" with "people with blindness" has absolutely nothing to do with the idea that "blind" is negative - if it did, I suspect proponents would, you know, not use the word blind! The actual reasoning is putting the people first, not their disability. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People-first_language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People-first_language
- inglor_cz 1y agoIt still seems to be rooted in the same social engineering principle, based on Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.
- opan 1y agoI actually thought you were just saying you were tired of reading about blind people and software made for them everywhere (perhaps as if to say there weren't actually that many blind people and you were feeling they were overrepresented). The exact wording didn't even hit me until I read the child comments to yours. The homeless/houseless stuff usually sticks out to me, but I guess "people with blindness" didn't sound that weird. It also sounds less strict, like saying you're blind makes me think so sight at all, "legally blind" as I sometimes hear would make me think hardly any sight. Being "with blindness" to me could mean something more partial, more of a spectrum. It also sounds more like we might say someone has IBS or diabetes, not that they are those things. Perhaps blind/deaf/dumb and the like are archaic terms because even with very primitive medical technology you could diagnose these things, so we've got much older records about them. I am not bothered by any of these terms, but I'm also not blind, nor a person with blindness, heh.
- hypito 1y ago[dead]
- dundercoder 1y agoNot sure I understand your point, but if it’s helpful, I’m blind, prefer to be called blind, but get tired of educating people on what “blind” actually means as it’s a spectrum and not a binary condition. In my community we refer to non-blind people as “sighted” which I suppose is also a spectrum. Blind is very descriptive, and in my opinion not derogatory. I’d rather it not be my primary differentiator or descriptor unless comparing me to virtually identical people who have full or near full vision. “The blind engineer on the team” is ok with me as it’s the fastest way to describe me if we’re all middle aged guys with beards. If I’m the only bearded guy on the team of middle aged engineers I’d prefer “the engineer with a beard”
- itsmenow 1y agoJust out of curiosity, do you have thoughts on what some of the most useful projects are to those in your position, that one could contribute to?
- lynx97 1y agoIt depends. Windows: Definitely NVDA (github.com/nvaccess/nvda) Linux: AT-SPI, ATK, Orca for the graphical side of things. The console/terminal is pretty well supported.
- itsmenow 1y agoThanks for those links. I recently looked for a plugin that reads highlighted text in firefox that "just works"... but found limited success (this was on linux). But really great to see that there are large-scale, OS-level already established FLOSS projects out there.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- atomicnumber3 1y agoWhat's your #1 pet peeve random sites get wrong w.r.t. accessibility?