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I think this thread went a bit off-topic with heavy discussions about the community or developer. As a user of Valetudo for 4+ years now, I can say that it's a

by gempir 1y ago

I think this thread went a bit off-topic with heavy discussions about the community or developer. As a user of Valetudo for 4+ years now, I can say that it's a wonderful Software once you get it running once. Depending on your vacuum model it's easier or more complicated. I bought a used Z10 Pro 4 years ago and with a UART-to-USB I could order from ali-express I rooted it effortlessly. Valetudo got many cool updates over the years and was always reliable for me. Not once did I have to re-root or something because the Software bricked itself or whatever. The updates were beautifully done and simply done in the UI. And I'm very happy that the Home Assistant integration worked great as well. Personally I couldn't buy a Vacuum robot anymore without Valetudo. Having a remote controllable camera and probably even microphone in some models in my home seems insane. The Defcon talks from Dennis Giese confirmed that some manufacturers literally send every log line to their cloud server and there was already some bigger mainstream drama of vacuum pictures ending up on facebook somehow a few years ago.

stavros 1y ago
Well, same. The thing is that, if my stock vacuum starts behaving erratically, I can always contact the manufacturer without fear of being banned. At this point, I have to choose whether I want a vacuum that phones home, or one where I know absolutely zero people will be able to help me, because they (and me) have all gotten banned.
- gempir 1y ago
  Yeah that’s fair. Personally I very very rarely use manufacturer support because it’s just very limited. And also likely limited to 2 years. And when the software is fully offline and I control the update cycle, it’s unlikely the vacuum will just start misbehaving unless the actual hardware is damaged
  - stavros 1y ago
    Yeah, I more meant if there's a bug in Valetudo, I'm SOL since I can't contact anyone.
    - hypfer 1y ago
      That is the case with every FOSS software where you did not buy a support contract. Would it help you to be able to contact me when I then say "actually, I do not care"? And then what?
      - stavros 1y ago
        Someone else had the same problem and helps, the way I help other people with their problems. You seem to be saying that OSS communities don't help, which is obviously not true. I'm a member of many OSS communities where users help each other, and that's a core part of why I prefer OSS projects. This doesn't happen when you ban most people.
        hypfer 1y ago
        > you ban most people. I do not ban most people as so much that I ban people that did not read and act according to the rules of the space. Which does turn out to be "most people" when you look at an unfiltered set of all humanity, because the ideology of the space is rather far away from that baseline. That is on purpose though and clearly explained many times in the documentation. The "Why not Valetudo?" page is a good start. The "FAQ" also houses some info. Code of Conduct, obviously and the Contributing.md too. The information is out there and I did try my best to make it comprehensible and coherent. Most people that get banned usually get banned because they did not read the information first but instead showed up with defaults.
        stavros 1y ago
        Your reasons are your own, but that doesn't change my point above. For me, an OSS project without a strong community looks about as bad as the original manufacturer software, with all the phoning home and other disadvantages that entails.
        hypfer 1y ago
        Oh, yes, absolutely. I am not in any way challenging that. That is the correct Take-away. Genuinely. As said, the culture is different. I do not intend to convince you that my project would be better than what the vendor can offer. In fact, you have correctly pointed out that in your situation, the vendor might actually offer the _better_ experience with actual paid support.
- necovek 1y ago
  I can see why author's strictness in adhering to his community rules is off-putting, but at the same time, for all the complaining, I do not see anyone being willing to put the effort in to build a different community. Yes, this is work, but one wants it, go and do it (not referring specifically to you, stavros, but to the general theme in the entire discussion). After all, this is free software, published under the Apache 2.0 license. Fork it and build a community you want it to have (you don't even have to do any code changes, and you can simply reject any external PRs more politely :)). With that said, maybe the author is right in wanting to keep this "infrastructure" boring and to attempt to safe-guard their time, but at the same time, they do spend a lot of time defending their approach to this and complaining how nobody has read their 20 pages of "community instructions", which really, is an expected behavior for everyone (no matter how much one wishes otherwise). I can't not wonder if it would be less time & energy consuming if they did it more politely?
  - hypfer 1y ago
    > I can't not wonder if it would be less time & energy consuming if they did it more politely? This is an interesting question that comes up from time to time and it's actually not as it seems. While it is work and taxing at all, the whole act of explaining is actually not very expensive. In fact, it is simply tapping into the stream of consciousness and piping it into a text input. What _would_ be expensive actions would be to: a) _not_ explain, see that something isn't quite right and then try to handle the internal discomfort sparking from that. b) mask and play a different "more polite" role, which actually just means "accepting the unsolicited emotional offloading and the task of handling those attached to it" both being "providing a service" to the random person that just approached me, and operating in a style that is unnatural to me. This is counterintuitive for the vast majority of people, because for them it works exactly the other way round. Doing this emotional labor for free would also be just giving away the thing that makes me money. Specifically, being able to understand technical details and also communicating those to people that won't necessarily do. Effectively, the free-plan includes technical support but not emotional consulting. This, for some, is hard to understand, for others, it is hard to accept. And, of course, it always gets worse when social media (like HN) is involved, because these machines erase any context and replace it with violently jamming in defaults + rewarding those that dunk the hardest and make the in-group of the mob feel pleasant feelings.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
timcobb 1y ago
Not sure how this is off-topic, software and community go hand in hand. Despite the focus on community, there is still a healthy emphasis on the software part (and many compliments lol).
haunter 1y ago
>I think this thread went a bit off-topic with heavy discussions about the community or developer. Not off topic at all but extremely relevant.

by gempir 1y ago

stavros 1y ago

Well, same. The thing is that, if my stock vacuum starts behaving erratically, I can always contact the manufacturer without fear of being banned. At this point, I have to choose whether I want a vacuum that phones home, or one where I know absolutely zero people will be able to help me, because they (and me) have all gotten banned.

gempir 1y ago
Yeah that’s fair. Personally I very very rarely use manufacturer support because it’s just very limited. And also likely limited to 2 years. And when the software is fully offline and I control the update cycle, it’s unlikely the vacuum will just start misbehaving unless the actual hardware is damaged
- stavros 1y ago
  Yeah, I more meant if there's a bug in Valetudo, I'm SOL since I can't contact anyone.
  - hypfer 1y ago
    That is the case with every FOSS software where you did not buy a support contract. Would it help you to be able to contact me when I then say "actually, I do not care"? And then what?
    - stavros 1y ago
      Someone else had the same problem and helps, the way I help other people with their problems. You seem to be saying that OSS communities don't help, which is obviously not true. I'm a member of many OSS communities where users help each other, and that's a core part of why I prefer OSS projects. This doesn't happen when you ban most people.
      - hypfer 1y ago
        > you ban most people. I do not ban most people as so much that I ban people that did not read and act according to the rules of the space. Which does turn out to be "most people" when you look at an unfiltered set of all humanity, because the ideology of the space is rather far away from that baseline. That is on purpose though and clearly explained many times in the documentation. The "Why not Valetudo?" page is a good start. The "FAQ" also houses some info. Code of Conduct, obviously and the Contributing.md too. The information is out there and I did try my best to make it comprehensible and coherent. Most people that get banned usually get banned because they did not read the information first but instead showed up with defaults.
        stavros 1y ago
        Your reasons are your own, but that doesn't change my point above. For me, an OSS project without a strong community looks about as bad as the original manufacturer software, with all the phoning home and other disadvantages that entails.
        hypfer 1y ago
        Oh, yes, absolutely. I am not in any way challenging that. That is the correct Take-away. Genuinely. As said, the culture is different. I do not intend to convince you that my project would be better than what the vendor can offer. In fact, you have correctly pointed out that in your situation, the vendor might actually offer the _better_ experience with actual paid support.
necovek 1y ago
I can see why author's strictness in adhering to his community rules is off-putting, but at the same time, for all the complaining, I do not see anyone being willing to put the effort in to build a different community. Yes, this is work, but one wants it, go and do it (not referring specifically to you, stavros, but to the general theme in the entire discussion). After all, this is free software, published under the Apache 2.0 license. Fork it and build a community you want it to have (you don't even have to do any code changes, and you can simply reject any external PRs more politely :)). With that said, maybe the author is right in wanting to keep this "infrastructure" boring and to attempt to safe-guard their time, but at the same time, they do spend a lot of time defending their approach to this and complaining how nobody has read their 20 pages of "community instructions", which really, is an expected behavior for everyone (no matter how much one wishes otherwise). I can't not wonder if it would be less time & energy consuming if they did it more politely?
- hypfer 1y ago
  > I can't not wonder if it would be less time & energy consuming if they did it more politely? This is an interesting question that comes up from time to time and it's actually not as it seems. While it is work and taxing at all, the whole act of explaining is actually not very expensive. In fact, it is simply tapping into the stream of consciousness and piping it into a text input. What _would_ be expensive actions would be to: a) _not_ explain, see that something isn't quite right and then try to handle the internal discomfort sparking from that. b) mask and play a different "more polite" role, which actually just means "accepting the unsolicited emotional offloading and the task of handling those attached to it" both being "providing a service" to the random person that just approached me, and operating in a style that is unnatural to me. This is counterintuitive for the vast majority of people, because for them it works exactly the other way round. Doing this emotional labor for free would also be just giving away the thing that makes me money. Specifically, being able to understand technical details and also communicating those to people that won't necessarily do. Effectively, the free-plan includes technical support but not emotional consulting. This, for some, is hard to understand, for others, it is hard to accept. And, of course, it always gets worse when social media (like HN) is involved, because these machines erase any context and replace it with violently jamming in defaults + rewarding those that dunk the hardest and make the in-group of the mob feel pleasant feelings.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

timcobb 1y ago

Not sure how this is off-topic, software and community go hand in hand. Despite the focus on community, there is still a healthy emphasis on the software part (and many compliments lol).

haunter 1y ago

>I think this thread went a bit off-topic with heavy discussions about the community or developer. Not off topic at all but extremely relevant.