4 ms·

It’s definitely not for everyone. But if the person, the org and role are a good fit, it’s not going to be that kind of worst case scenario. IMO, “nothing is n

It’s definitely not for everyone. But if the person, the org and role are a good fit, it’s not going to be that kind of worst case scenario. IMO, “nothing is not your job” is odd phrasing that doesn’t really mean “everything is your job,” it’s more like “see something, say something—-in a way that is received constructively and results in positive change, whether through your own actions or others’.” The unstated corollary is if you’re in a shitty organization that just will not get better, the most positive change you can make for the world is to stop wasting your time helping them and go somewhere better, where you can make a difference.

the_af 1y ago
The way the author describes it (in contradicting terms; see the point where he claims if you're a Principal IC, you were promoted because you already acted like one, making the ~30 items of advice redundant) it's the most stressful position ever. Be critical, don't be in the critical path, be laid back in an advisory role but be hands-on or you're setting yourself up for failure, work on stuff you enjoy but be ready to justify why it needs a Principal or you're "working on the wrong thing", sponsor, consult, explain to leadership, mentor, code, be present, do not be too present, "feel the pulse", don't attend too many meetings, don't attend too few, gently nudge, don't speak all the time, be careful about staying quiet, etc etc. Seems like hell. And presumably, you'll get fired if things turn out badly with a project. Thanks, but no thanks.
- LPisGood 1y ago
  All that and also without a team of engineers working with you on the same problems, and you have limited formal power to actually set priorities and assign work. That sounds miserable.
  - questionableans 1y ago
    The way it works is you convince engineers and managers to want to work with you.
    - LPisGood 1y ago
      Making your whole living on influence without authority sounds awful.
      - zb 1y ago
        It’s a lot better than the reverse.
      - questionableans 1y ago
        That’s life. Unless you’re a hermit, a complete pushover, or a slave master, you’re constantly trying to influence without authority. Want to go out to dinner with friends? That’s influence without authority right there. Want to get your PR approved? Influence without authority. Trying to get your point across to strangers online? Ditto.
        the_af 1y ago
        Yes, but the stakes at your job are different. You don't get fired or get bad performance reviews if you fail to convince your friends to go out for dinner. You're not expected to be constantly be doing this either. You are not paid a top salary and get performance reviews based on that. Principal ICs sounds like a high stress occupation...
        questionableans 11mo ago
        I’m sure the stress level varies by the individual. The upside to a more collaborative role like this is you don’t have the stress of having to know everything. Individual developer roles can be more stressful because if you say you’ll solve a problem in a certain amount of time, and then you’re off on your own coding, and things aren’t working out… you’re personally on the hook for the whole thing. Whereas if you’re leading an effort and company priorities shift so people can’t contribute as much, you communicate that to all your stakeholders, and look good for letting higher priority efforts have more resources.
        11mo ago
- questionableans 1y ago
  It’s all about being balanced and picking the right strategy for the situation, not doing everything all at once. A guide like this could be useful for someone to consult when they find themselves in a different situation, regardless of their seniority level. And in my experience, more senior engineers don’t have a greater risk of being fired for a project going badly because they identify problems to work on that matter and are within their areas of expertise, and evaluate possible risks early and communicate them.
  - the_af 1y ago
    Being balanced about political/soft skills makes me nervous, especially when it becomes a mandate and your main role. Some people are good at it, some are bad -- but it's completely irrational to expect this to be the logical next step for ICs and senior engineers. I've seen it backfire spectacularly when a very senior engineer who worked in a critical part of the product was forced into this "because of promotions", then because he was an introvert did it poorly and got a really bad performance review ("underperformer"), got upset and quit. Aftermath: his manager ended up getting fired because of this screwup, but truly that was scapegoating. What's worse is he was happy in his previous role, doing groundbreaking work, didn't want the promotion and wasn't planning on leaving. I'm not disputing what you say, but in my experience the middle technical roles are the safest. Too junior and you'll be the first to be axed for mediocre performance, too senior and you'll be blamed for failures and fired (sometimes for playing the political game and losing). Meanwhile, the mid/senior programmers doing the work will keep on. Unless there's another round of layoffs, those upset everything.
    - questionableans 1y ago
      That’s why a lot of companies only promote after demonstrating a track record of performing at the next level. It can also be an argument for secret levels. Although I’m not sure how useful that really is in practice. For someone who does well at influence, it’s not a mandate, it’s permission to spend some time on the nontechnical factors that are necessary to make your work turn out better. And that also means helping others who have good ideas but aren’t comfortable with the influence part themselves.
- cvwright 1y ago
  The contradictions are difficult but wisdom has always been like that. See for example the book of Proverbs, it’s full of contradictory advice. “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him.” Versus “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.” The skill is to understand the truth of both statements, and to discern when to apply each one.
  - the_af 11mo ago
    I'm not sold on that kind of wisdom, it's very close to empty platitudes. Atheist here, so Bible wisdom is especially not useful to me.

the_af 1y ago

The way the author describes it (in contradicting terms; see the point where he claims if you're a Principal IC, you were promoted because you already acted like one, making the ~30 items of advice redundant) it's the most stressful position ever. Be critical, don't be in the critical path, be laid back in an advisory role but be hands-on or you're setting yourself up for failure, work on stuff you enjoy but be ready to justify why it needs a Principal or you're "working on the wrong thing", sponsor, consult, explain to leadership, mentor, code, be present, do not be too present, "feel the pulse", don't attend too many meetings, don't attend too few, gently nudge, don't speak all the time, be careful about staying quiet, etc etc. Seems like hell. And presumably, you'll get fired if things turn out badly with a project. Thanks, but no thanks.

LPisGood 1y ago
All that and also without a team of engineers working with you on the same problems, and you have limited formal power to actually set priorities and assign work. That sounds miserable.
- questionableans 1y ago
  The way it works is you convince engineers and managers to want to work with you.
  - LPisGood 1y ago
    Making your whole living on influence without authority sounds awful.
    - zb 1y ago
      It’s a lot better than the reverse.
    - questionableans 1y ago
      That’s life. Unless you’re a hermit, a complete pushover, or a slave master, you’re constantly trying to influence without authority. Want to go out to dinner with friends? That’s influence without authority right there. Want to get your PR approved? Influence without authority. Trying to get your point across to strangers online? Ditto.
      - the_af 1y ago
        Yes, but the stakes at your job are different. You don't get fired or get bad performance reviews if you fail to convince your friends to go out for dinner. You're not expected to be constantly be doing this either. You are not paid a top salary and get performance reviews based on that. Principal ICs sounds like a high stress occupation...
        questionableans 11mo ago
        I’m sure the stress level varies by the individual. The upside to a more collaborative role like this is you don’t have the stress of having to know everything. Individual developer roles can be more stressful because if you say you’ll solve a problem in a certain amount of time, and then you’re off on your own coding, and things aren’t working out… you’re personally on the hook for the whole thing. Whereas if you’re leading an effort and company priorities shift so people can’t contribute as much, you communicate that to all your stakeholders, and look good for letting higher priority efforts have more resources.
        11mo ago
questionableans 1y ago
It’s all about being balanced and picking the right strategy for the situation, not doing everything all at once. A guide like this could be useful for someone to consult when they find themselves in a different situation, regardless of their seniority level. And in my experience, more senior engineers don’t have a greater risk of being fired for a project going badly because they identify problems to work on that matter and are within their areas of expertise, and evaluate possible risks early and communicate them.
- the_af 1y ago
  Being balanced about political/soft skills makes me nervous, especially when it becomes a mandate and your main role. Some people are good at it, some are bad -- but it's completely irrational to expect this to be the logical next step for ICs and senior engineers. I've seen it backfire spectacularly when a very senior engineer who worked in a critical part of the product was forced into this "because of promotions", then because he was an introvert did it poorly and got a really bad performance review ("underperformer"), got upset and quit. Aftermath: his manager ended up getting fired because of this screwup, but truly that was scapegoating. What's worse is he was happy in his previous role, doing groundbreaking work, didn't want the promotion and wasn't planning on leaving. I'm not disputing what you say, but in my experience the middle technical roles are the safest. Too junior and you'll be the first to be axed for mediocre performance, too senior and you'll be blamed for failures and fired (sometimes for playing the political game and losing). Meanwhile, the mid/senior programmers doing the work will keep on. Unless there's another round of layoffs, those upset everything.
  - questionableans 1y ago
    That’s why a lot of companies only promote after demonstrating a track record of performing at the next level. It can also be an argument for secret levels. Although I’m not sure how useful that really is in practice. For someone who does well at influence, it’s not a mandate, it’s permission to spend some time on the nontechnical factors that are necessary to make your work turn out better. And that also means helping others who have good ideas but aren’t comfortable with the influence part themselves.
cvwright 1y ago
The contradictions are difficult but wisdom has always been like that. See for example the book of Proverbs, it’s full of contradictory advice. “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him.” Versus “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.” The skill is to understand the truth of both statements, and to discern when to apply each one.
- the_af 11mo ago
  I'm not sold on that kind of wisdom, it's very close to empty platitudes. Atheist here, so Bible wisdom is especially not useful to me.