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The biggest problem with public school is school size and class size. The last century of school building built prison-like megaliths, when it should have built

by sgc 1y ago

The biggest problem with public school is school size and class size. The last century of school building built prison-like megaliths, when it should have built a much more distributed system. Class sizes under 20 and schools under 120 at least through middle school would raise a far less pathologically self-centered society. But most people who vote/make decisions would have to care more deeply, so I think it's a non-starter in the US, and more and more some other countries. Kids stop caring way too young as a self-preservation mechanism. This means many of them also stop trying... It's a spiral that can only be broken by restructuring.

inglor_cz 1y ago
"Class sizes under 20 and schools under 120 at least through middle school would raise a far less pathologically self-centered society." This is a big if. Until the 1990s, class sizes routinely exceeded 30 and school sizes 500 in former Czechoslovakia, but I wouldn't call us "pathologically self-centered society". As for self-centeredness, shrinking family size might be the true reason. Only children tend to be a lot more pampered than kids who were born into a family of six. In China, they are called "Little Emperors".
- bdangubic 1y ago
  > As for self-centeredness, shrinking family size might be the true reason. Only children tend to be a lot more pampered than kids who were born into a family of six. to quote @inglor_cz - this is big if… you are arguing against generalization in your first paragraph and then you are proceeding to generalize… I am only child and my daughter is too and neither of us (especially me) have been pampered
  - inglor_cz 1y ago
    I am an only child too. "Tend to be" is quite a soft claim, though, with plenty of room for exceptions. The Little Emperors phenomenon is still a thing. If a kid has two parents and four grandparents who have no other descendands, it is USUALLY on the receiving end of a lot more attention and resources than if there are six of them.
- sgc 1y ago
  I think you are missing the context of what I said: I didn't say: all countries with large class sizes are self-centered. I said: in a self-centered society, smaller class sizes would be a big help to undo the harm that currently exists. Don't underestimate the influence schools and school communities have on the formation of character. It is huge.
  - em-bee 1y ago
    that sounds more reasonable, even though i don't see why that would work, but i too did not read that in you previous message. how would small class sizes help make children less self centered? more attention from the teacher? why would that help? i have to admit i have no clue what factors help kids be less self centered.
    - sgc 1y ago
      Two main reasons: 1. It's easier to form friendships in a smaller group. In larger groups it is much easier for it to became a wall of people rather than individual persons. Large groups can be extremely overwhelming for children (they are still overwhelming for many adults). 2. It is much easier for the teacher to see the group dynamics, and jump in to make sure nobody is excluded. If the teacher doesn't do this, many of the benefits of smaller class size will be lost. Teachers need to very vigilant to teach that it's not okay to exclude kids and not play with them, its not ok to bully, etc. If there is nobody in the room to foster healthy relationships, they will never reach even close to their full potential. I have seen and talked about this in quite a bit of detail with educators who are continually successful, and it is not hard to figure out - it requires devotion rather than advanced pedagogical theory and strategy.
  - inglor_cz 1y ago
    This is indeed a more nuanced context, but it was absolutely unreadable to me from your original comment. Thanks for chiming in and explaining it.
em-bee 1y ago
The biggest problem with public school is school size and class size the montessori method can handle larger class sizes specifically because of the way it is designed. in other words, large class sized are an even better argument for why the montessori method should be used.
- sgc 1y ago
  I have experience with Montessori, and I love the system. But it doesn't work for everybody. The Montessori educators I have known were open about the common situation where about 1 in 20 kids just do not learn with the lack of structure - they never become self-starters. In a public Montessori with large class sizes, there had better be a very clear plan of how to help those kids. We started our kids in Montessori and switched to Waldorf because my eldest really needed more structure, and my wife didn't want to try again. When we transitioned our charter Waldorf to a public Waldorf, the kids experiencing it for their first year absolutely thrived. I would love to see both systems expand significantly in the public space, and have educators with enough savvy to help kids find their best place. I think that even a more traditional school system can be totally healthy, and should stay part of the school mix. I have seen it work out relatively well in other countries. It just doesn't work when run like a for-profit prison.
  - solfox 1y ago
    PLEASE do your due diligence before considering Waldorf for your kids. I'm not saying that kids cannot have a good experience at a Waldorf school, or that all their educational ideas are bad. Just that once you children have been there for a couple of years, you learn some very disturbing truths about the organization. It's not an education institution as much as it is a religious organization - your children WILL be taught hymns about god and angels in class. The teachers will not admit to this. They will be taught from the original lessons of Steiner, who had some rather unconventional pseudo-scientific ideas (even for his day). This is coming from a dad who had his kids at Waldorf for three years, and I'm so glad I finally got them out - even with the difficult academic transition. There is plenty of information published about their organization online, and growing awareness worldwide.

by sgc 1y ago

inglor_cz 1y ago

"Class sizes under 20 and schools under 120 at least through middle school would raise a far less pathologically self-centered society." This is a big if. Until the 1990s, class sizes routinely exceeded 30 and school sizes 500 in former Czechoslovakia, but I wouldn't call us "pathologically self-centered society". As for self-centeredness, shrinking family size might be the true reason. Only children tend to be a lot more pampered than kids who were born into a family of six. In China, they are called "Little Emperors".

bdangubic 1y ago
> As for self-centeredness, shrinking family size might be the true reason. Only children tend to be a lot more pampered than kids who were born into a family of six. to quote @inglor_cz - this is big if… you are arguing against generalization in your first paragraph and then you are proceeding to generalize… I am only child and my daughter is too and neither of us (especially me) have been pampered
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  I am an only child too. "Tend to be" is quite a soft claim, though, with plenty of room for exceptions. The Little Emperors phenomenon is still a thing. If a kid has two parents and four grandparents who have no other descendands, it is USUALLY on the receiving end of a lot more attention and resources than if there are six of them.
sgc 1y ago
I think you are missing the context of what I said: I didn't say: all countries with large class sizes are self-centered. I said: in a self-centered society, smaller class sizes would be a big help to undo the harm that currently exists. Don't underestimate the influence schools and school communities have on the formation of character. It is huge.
- em-bee 1y ago
  that sounds more reasonable, even though i don't see why that would work, but i too did not read that in you previous message. how would small class sizes help make children less self centered? more attention from the teacher? why would that help? i have to admit i have no clue what factors help kids be less self centered.
  - sgc 1y ago
    Two main reasons: 1. It's easier to form friendships in a smaller group. In larger groups it is much easier for it to became a wall of people rather than individual persons. Large groups can be extremely overwhelming for children (they are still overwhelming for many adults). 2. It is much easier for the teacher to see the group dynamics, and jump in to make sure nobody is excluded. If the teacher doesn't do this, many of the benefits of smaller class size will be lost. Teachers need to very vigilant to teach that it's not okay to exclude kids and not play with them, its not ok to bully, etc. If there is nobody in the room to foster healthy relationships, they will never reach even close to their full potential. I have seen and talked about this in quite a bit of detail with educators who are continually successful, and it is not hard to figure out - it requires devotion rather than advanced pedagogical theory and strategy.
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  This is indeed a more nuanced context, but it was absolutely unreadable to me from your original comment. Thanks for chiming in and explaining it.

em-bee 1y ago

The biggest problem with public school is school size and class size the montessori method can handle larger class sizes specifically because of the way it is designed. in other words, large class sized are an even better argument for why the montessori method should be used.

sgc 1y ago
I have experience with Montessori, and I love the system. But it doesn't work for everybody. The Montessori educators I have known were open about the common situation where about 1 in 20 kids just do not learn with the lack of structure - they never become self-starters. In a public Montessori with large class sizes, there had better be a very clear plan of how to help those kids. We started our kids in Montessori and switched to Waldorf because my eldest really needed more structure, and my wife didn't want to try again. When we transitioned our charter Waldorf to a public Waldorf, the kids experiencing it for their first year absolutely thrived. I would love to see both systems expand significantly in the public space, and have educators with enough savvy to help kids find their best place. I think that even a more traditional school system can be totally healthy, and should stay part of the school mix. I have seen it work out relatively well in other countries. It just doesn't work when run like a for-profit prison.
- solfox 1y ago
  PLEASE do your due diligence before considering Waldorf for your kids. I'm not saying that kids cannot have a good experience at a Waldorf school, or that all their educational ideas are bad. Just that once you children have been there for a couple of years, you learn some very disturbing truths about the organization. It's not an education institution as much as it is a religious organization - your children WILL be taught hymns about god and angels in class. The teachers will not admit to this. They will be taught from the original lessons of Steiner, who had some rather unconventional pseudo-scientific ideas (even for his day). This is coming from a dad who had his kids at Waldorf for three years, and I'm so glad I finally got them out - even with the difficult academic transition. There is plenty of information published about their organization online, and growing awareness worldwide.