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> all differences in material outcomes are short term; and while it would be nice if optimally moral behavior (including honesty) were also the optimal behavior

> all differences in material outcomes are short term; and while it would be nice if optimally moral behavior (including honesty) were also the optimal behavior for personal benefit, that’s not usually the case What a crappy worldview that is, and while it may have been true in the past, times have changed, and it no longer is the case. People can and will expose and report fraud rather immediately. Of course if one is demented or just not interested in fact-finding, then it makes no difference. Whether choosing to seek truth or ignore it, either way it is a choice. Let me sum it up by saying that those who reject the truth have far shorter lives than those who accept it. So, yes, the ones disinterested in it will be dead sooner, and in this way they have more to gain from being a part of the lie.

dragonwriter 1y ago
> What a crappy worldview that is, and while it may have been true in the past, times have changed, and it no longer is the case. People can and will expose and report fraud rather immediately. If you don't think plenty of liars get away with repeatedly lying to the same people, then you aren't paying much attention to the real world around you. Yes, some people will notice that they have been lied to the first time, and some of them will report it if that is something along the lines of fraud. > Let me sum it up by saying that those who reject the truth have far shorter lives than those who accept it. Even if that is true, that’s a very different thing. "Lying" and "rejecting the truth" are not the same thing.
- OutOfHere 1y ago
  > "Lying" and "rejecting the truth" are not the same thing. To reject the truth is to lie to oneself.
  - ben_w 1y ago
    Those who lie to themselves, usually do badly. Usually, not always. Those whose self-lies make them confident in their decisions, have a bias towards taking risks that they don't even realise are risks, and that absolutely can pay off massively — see e.g. every lottery winner. Such confidence is also a way to get public support, and directly cause success, seen with various (but not all) politicians.
ben_w 1y ago
> What a crappy worldview that is, and while it may have been true in the past, times have changed, and it no longer is the case. People can and will expose and report fraud rather immediately. Of course if one is demented or just not interested in fact-finding, then it makes no difference. Whether choosing to seek truth or ignore it, either way it is a choice. Sadly, I think the world has moved in the opposite direction. I must assume that honesty was very important in the ancient world, in order for it to be listed in the Ten Commandments. Today? Today I'm on a shared network with more humans than there are heartbeats in a lifetime. Even if a fraudster used their real names and not a fake ID, even when they're in the same country and it's not an international scam, even when a fraudster does time in prison, even when you're sure the fraud database itself isn't being gamed (e.g. getting legal threats for libel from listed real fraudsters, or the actual literal president uses their executive powers to pardon them), there's too many other people with the same names to just rely on looking everyone up.

dragonwriter 1y ago

> What a crappy worldview that is, and while it may have been true in the past, times have changed, and it no longer is the case. People can and will expose and report fraud rather immediately. If you don't think plenty of liars get away with repeatedly lying to the same people, then you aren't paying much attention to the real world around you. Yes, some people will notice that they have been lied to the first time, and some of them will report it if that is something along the lines of fraud. > Let me sum it up by saying that those who reject the truth have far shorter lives than those who accept it. Even if that is true, that’s a very different thing. "Lying" and "rejecting the truth" are not the same thing.

OutOfHere 1y ago
> "Lying" and "rejecting the truth" are not the same thing. To reject the truth is to lie to oneself.
- ben_w 1y ago
  Those who lie to themselves, usually do badly. Usually, not always. Those whose self-lies make them confident in their decisions, have a bias towards taking risks that they don't even realise are risks, and that absolutely can pay off massively — see e.g. every lottery winner. Such confidence is also a way to get public support, and directly cause success, seen with various (but not all) politicians.

ben_w 1y ago

> What a crappy worldview that is, and while it may have been true in the past, times have changed, and it no longer is the case. People can and will expose and report fraud rather immediately. Of course if one is demented or just not interested in fact-finding, then it makes no difference. Whether choosing to seek truth or ignore it, either way it is a choice. Sadly, I think the world has moved in the opposite direction. I must assume that honesty was very important in the ancient world, in order for it to be listed in the Ten Commandments. Today? Today I'm on a shared network with more humans than there are heartbeats in a lifetime. Even if a fraudster used their real names and not a fake ID, even when they're in the same country and it's not an international scam, even when a fraudster does time in prison, even when you're sure the fraud database itself isn't being gamed (e.g. getting legal threats for libel from listed real fraudsters, or the actual literal president uses their executive powers to pardon them), there's too many other people with the same names to just rely on looking everyone up.