8 ms·

This is usual systemd maintainer behavior. Poetterings "I don't consider it much of a problem" is legend: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644 https:/

This is usual systemd maintainer behavior. Poetterings "I don't consider it much of a problem" is legend: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644

crest 1y ago
The fool doesn't know how globbing works, but considers his uninformed guess good enough without testing it or reading (and understanding) the spec.
- kelnos 1y ago
  To be fair, he does know how globbing works: ".*" should include "." and ".." under normal globbing rules. The 'rm' command (presumably) has a special case in it to avoid traversing those in recursive mode because doing so would be a footgun.
  - kps 1y ago
    To be fair, POSIX-compliant shells are allowed to exclude `.` and `..`, and some do, and POSIX says this may be required in the future. https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/utilities/V3_chap02.html#tag_19_14_03 https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/utilities/V...
    - withinboredom 1y ago
      Thankfully they updated it in the last 10 years … oh wait. Hmm. Seems this part of the standard is abandoned. We should create a new standard!
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
deaux 1y ago
Interesting coincidence that both are @Microsoft.
- kragen 1y ago
  Do we really want Microsoft employees setting standards for Debian?
  - dijit 1y ago
    Apparently yes, since the parent to your comment has been flagged. Personally I find an interesting observation, and microsoft contributing to linux in any way should be met with skepticism based on the entire last 30 years. People are so quick to wipe away any wrongdoing from Microsoft as soon as they get thrown a bone, there's some interesting psychology here.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - kragen 1y ago
      Also Microsoft is doing all kinds of abusive things to their users in Windows 11.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
    It's complicated. Microsoft devotes resources to it and they can afford to do so but they only have that luxury from being a massive user trampling megacorp.
    - kragen 1y ago
      If we could trust them to be devoting resources to it without any risk of abusing their access and power in the future, that would be sort of okay, but we can't. Like, should Lockheed intentionally hire North Korean programmers at cheap rates because North Korea can afford to devote resources to helping Lockheed? The issue here is not primarily that North Korea is a massive citizen-trampling megastate. It's that Lockheed's interests are misaligned with North Korea's.
rpcope1 1y ago
I don't know of anyone that's been doing this for a while that hasn't been touched by systemd stupidity in some way. I still loathe the default behavior around the stub-resolver with unqualified names that "just worked" before Lennart decided he knew best.
- techcode 1y ago
  Depends on what you mean by this in "been doing this"? While work now mandates "If you want to use Linux, it has to be Ubuntu" (and I complied). On personal front - about a decade ago I've moved from "vanilla" Gentoo to Calculate Linux - which was and still is 100% Gentoo. These days difference is even smaller, but already 10+ years ago Calculate had sane profiles as well as all software packages as pre compiled binaries matching those profiles. And although systemd is one of configurable USE keywords on Calculate/Gentoo - it's still not the default. So there probably are some folks that haven't been touched by systemd at all... For now.
- bigstrat2003 1y ago
  I've been a Linux sysadmin professionally for 10 years now. I have never had problems with systemd, nor do I consider it to be stupid. Obviously you don't have to like it, but I think you're painting with too broad of a brush.
  - VladVladikoff 1y ago
    Doesn’t that mean you started being a sysadmin after systemd was widely adopted? Most people who dislike it probably actively worked with Linux prior to systemd.
ttapp 1y ago
Yes, the guy is legendary in terms of maximum arrogance. He did impressive work early on designing a complex system, but gets defensive when that overengineered moloch runs into real-world problems. Systemd has accumulated lots of small hacks to make it more versatile, let's hope a better solution will be available one day.
- scroot 1y ago
  Whenever I'm using Guix I enjoy the simplicity of Shepherd [1] [1] https://shepherding.services/manual/html_node/Introduction.html#Introduction https://shepherding.services/manual/html_node/Introduction.h...

This is usual systemd maintainer behavior. Poetterings "I don't consider it much of a problem" is legend: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/5644

crest 1y ago

The fool doesn't know how globbing works, but considers his uninformed guess good enough without testing it or reading (and understanding) the spec.

kelnos 1y ago
To be fair, he does know how globbing works: ".*" should include "." and ".." under normal globbing rules. The 'rm' command (presumably) has a special case in it to avoid traversing those in recursive mode because doing so would be a footgun.
- kps 1y ago
  To be fair, POSIX-compliant shells are allowed to exclude `.` and `..`, and some do, and POSIX says this may be required in the future. https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/utilities/V3_chap02.html#tag_19_14_03 https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/utilities/V...
  - withinboredom 1y ago
    Thankfully they updated it in the last 10 years … oh wait. Hmm. Seems this part of the standard is abandoned. We should create a new standard!
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

deaux 1y ago

Interesting coincidence that both are @Microsoft.

kragen 1y ago
Do we really want Microsoft employees setting standards for Debian?
- dijit 1y ago
  Apparently yes, since the parent to your comment has been flagged. Personally I find an interesting observation, and microsoft contributing to linux in any way should be met with skepticism based on the entire last 30 years. People are so quick to wipe away any wrongdoing from Microsoft as soon as they get thrown a bone, there's some interesting psychology here.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - kragen 1y ago
    Also Microsoft is doing all kinds of abusive things to their users in Windows 11.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
  It's complicated. Microsoft devotes resources to it and they can afford to do so but they only have that luxury from being a massive user trampling megacorp.
  - kragen 1y ago
    If we could trust them to be devoting resources to it without any risk of abusing their access and power in the future, that would be sort of okay, but we can't. Like, should Lockheed intentionally hire North Korean programmers at cheap rates because North Korea can afford to devote resources to helping Lockheed? The issue here is not primarily that North Korea is a massive citizen-trampling megastate. It's that Lockheed's interests are misaligned with North Korea's.

rpcope1 1y ago

I don't know of anyone that's been doing this for a while that hasn't been touched by systemd stupidity in some way. I still loathe the default behavior around the stub-resolver with unqualified names that "just worked" before Lennart decided he knew best.

techcode 1y ago
Depends on what you mean by this in "been doing this"? While work now mandates "If you want to use Linux, it has to be Ubuntu" (and I complied). On personal front - about a decade ago I've moved from "vanilla" Gentoo to Calculate Linux - which was and still is 100% Gentoo. These days difference is even smaller, but already 10+ years ago Calculate had sane profiles as well as all software packages as pre compiled binaries matching those profiles. And although systemd is one of configurable USE keywords on Calculate/Gentoo - it's still not the default. So there probably are some folks that haven't been touched by systemd at all... For now.
bigstrat2003 1y ago
I've been a Linux sysadmin professionally for 10 years now. I have never had problems with systemd, nor do I consider it to be stupid. Obviously you don't have to like it, but I think you're painting with too broad of a brush.
- VladVladikoff 1y ago
  Doesn’t that mean you started being a sysadmin after systemd was widely adopted? Most people who dislike it probably actively worked with Linux prior to systemd.

ttapp 1y ago

Yes, the guy is legendary in terms of maximum arrogance. He did impressive work early on designing a complex system, but gets defensive when that overengineered moloch runs into real-world problems. Systemd has accumulated lots of small hacks to make it more versatile, let's hope a better solution will be available one day.

scroot 1y ago
Whenever I'm using Guix I enjoy the simplicity of Shepherd [1] [1] https://shepherding.services/manual/html_node/Introduction.html#Introduction https://shepherding.services/manual/html_node/Introduction.h...