5 ms·

> More than anything, the Rust community is hyper-fixated on stability and correctness. It is very much the antithesis to “move fast and break things”. This is

> More than anything, the Rust community is hyper-fixated on stability and correctness. It is very much the antithesis to “move fast and break things”. This is incorrect. https://devclass.com/2024/08/19/rust-1-80-0-breaks-existing-code-such-as-time-crate-exposes-compatibility-snag-with-type-inference/ https://devclass.com/2024/08/19/rust-1-80-0-breaks-existing-...

simonask 1y ago
The high level of visibility that this incident received is a great example of the point I'm making. Can you name one more?
- rustdebacletime 1y ago
  It received a lot of attention and "visibility" because it caused a lot of pain to some people. I am befuddled why you would wrongly attempt to dismiss this undeniable counter-example. Sorry, but your argument is incorrect.
  - simonask 1y ago
    I suspect you miss the point. Somebody is attempting to characterize the Rust community in general as being similar to other programming communities that value velocity over stability, such as the JS ecosystem and others. I’m pointing out that incidents such as this are incredibly rare, and extremely controversial within the community, precisely because people care much more about stability than velocity. Indeed, the design of the Rust language itself is in so many ways hyper-fixated on correctness and stability - it’s the entire raison d’etre of the language - and this is reflected in the culture.
    - rustdebacletime 1y ago
      Comparing with JS ecosystem is very telling. Some early Rust developers, come from the JS ecosystem (especially at Firefox), and Cargo takes inspiration from the JS ecosystem, like with lock files. But JS ecosystem is a terrible baseline to compare with regarding stability. Comparing a language's stabilitity with JS ecosystem says very little. You should have picked a systems language to compare with. And your post is itself a part of the Rust community, and it itself is an argument against what you claim in it. If you cannot or will not own up to the 1.80 time crate debacle, or mention the 1.80 time crate debacle proactively as a black mark that weighs on Rust's conscience and that it will take time to rebuild trust and confidence in Rust's stability because of it, well, your priorities, understood as in the Rust community's priorities, are clear, and they do not, in practice, lie with stability, safety and security, nor with being forthcoming.
      - simonask 1y ago
        Ok, I'm going to call it here. I don't know what this comment (or account) is, and I'm not particularly interested in a bad faith flamewar.
        rustdebacletime 1y ago
        It is not "bad faith", or insincere in any way. If you actually considered it or cared, you could use it as constructive criticism.
- amiga386 1y ago
  I'm going to throw in another one. Cargo always picks the newest version of a dependency, even if that version is incompatible with the version of Rust you have installed. You're like "build this please", and it's like "hey I helpfully upgraded this module! oh and you can't build this at all, your compiler is too old granddad" They finally addressed this bug -- optionally (the default is still to break the build at the slightest provocation) -- in January this year (which of course, requires you upgrade your compiler again to at least that) https://blog.rust-lang.org/2025/01/09/Rust-1.84.0/#cargo-considers-rust-versions-for-dependency-version-selection https://blog.rust-lang.org/2025/01/09/Rust-1.84.0/#cargo-con... What a bunch of shiny-shiny chasing idiots with a brittle build system. It's designed to ratchet forward your dependencies and throw new bugs and less-well-tested code at you. That's absolutely exhausting. I'm not your guinea pig, I want to build reliable, working systems. gcc -std=c89 for me please.
  - Avamander 11mo ago
    Let the one without sin throw the first stone. Please describe to us how you do dependency management with C. Also picking C89 over any later iteration is bananas.
    - rustdebacletime 11mo ago
      I would use a newer version of C, and consider picking C++, if the choice was between C, C++, Ada, and Rust. (If pattern matching would be a large help, I might consider Rust). For C++, there is vcpkg and Conan. While they are overall significantly or much worse options than what Rust offers according to many, in large part due to C++'s cruft and backwards compatibility, they do exist.
      - Avamander 11mo ago
        > For C++, there is vcpkg and Conan But I asked about C.
        rustdebacletime 11mo ago

simonask 1y ago

The high level of visibility that this incident received is a great example of the point I'm making. Can you name one more?

rustdebacletime 1y ago
It received a lot of attention and "visibility" because it caused a lot of pain to some people. I am befuddled why you would wrongly attempt to dismiss this undeniable counter-example. Sorry, but your argument is incorrect.
- simonask 1y ago
  I suspect you miss the point. Somebody is attempting to characterize the Rust community in general as being similar to other programming communities that value velocity over stability, such as the JS ecosystem and others. I’m pointing out that incidents such as this are incredibly rare, and extremely controversial within the community, precisely because people care much more about stability than velocity. Indeed, the design of the Rust language itself is in so many ways hyper-fixated on correctness and stability - it’s the entire raison d’etre of the language - and this is reflected in the culture.
  - rustdebacletime 1y ago
    Comparing with JS ecosystem is very telling. Some early Rust developers, come from the JS ecosystem (especially at Firefox), and Cargo takes inspiration from the JS ecosystem, like with lock files. But JS ecosystem is a terrible baseline to compare with regarding stability. Comparing a language's stabilitity with JS ecosystem says very little. You should have picked a systems language to compare with. And your post is itself a part of the Rust community, and it itself is an argument against what you claim in it. If you cannot or will not own up to the 1.80 time crate debacle, or mention the 1.80 time crate debacle proactively as a black mark that weighs on Rust's conscience and that it will take time to rebuild trust and confidence in Rust's stability because of it, well, your priorities, understood as in the Rust community's priorities, are clear, and they do not, in practice, lie with stability, safety and security, nor with being forthcoming.
    - simonask 1y ago
      Ok, I'm going to call it here. I don't know what this comment (or account) is, and I'm not particularly interested in a bad faith flamewar.
      - rustdebacletime 1y ago
        It is not "bad faith", or insincere in any way. If you actually considered it or cared, you could use it as constructive criticism.
amiga386 1y ago
I'm going to throw in another one. Cargo always picks the newest version of a dependency, even if that version is incompatible with the version of Rust you have installed. You're like "build this please", and it's like "hey I helpfully upgraded this module! oh and you can't build this at all, your compiler is too old granddad" They finally addressed this bug -- optionally (the default is still to break the build at the slightest provocation) -- in January this year (which of course, requires you upgrade your compiler again to at least that) https://blog.rust-lang.org/2025/01/09/Rust-1.84.0/#cargo-considers-rust-versions-for-dependency-version-selection https://blog.rust-lang.org/2025/01/09/Rust-1.84.0/#cargo-con... What a bunch of shiny-shiny chasing idiots with a brittle build system. It's designed to ratchet forward your dependencies and throw new bugs and less-well-tested code at you. That's absolutely exhausting. I'm not your guinea pig, I want to build reliable, working systems. gcc -std=c89 for me please.
- Avamander 11mo ago
  Let the one without sin throw the first stone. Please describe to us how you do dependency management with C. Also picking C89 over any later iteration is bananas.
  - rustdebacletime 11mo ago
    I would use a newer version of C, and consider picking C++, if the choice was between C, C++, Ada, and Rust. (If pattern matching would be a large help, I might consider Rust). For C++, there is vcpkg and Conan. While they are overall significantly or much worse options than what Rust offers according to many, in large part due to C++'s cruft and backwards compatibility, they do exist.
    - Avamander 11mo ago
      > For C++, there is vcpkg and Conan But I asked about C.
      - rustdebacletime 11mo ago