4 ms·

SignatureSolar has panels for $0.25/w. The tariffs are a nothing burger. If you're paying someone else to do it, the panels will likely be <10% of the cost.

by sagarm 1y ago

kragen 1y ago
That's still 150% higher than the wholesale price overseas, and maybe if paying someone to install an appliance costs 9× more than the appliance does, you should think about doing it yourself.
- sagarm 1y ago
  Oh yeah, DIY is the way to go. But even for a DIY project the other stuff you need -- inverters, batteries, optimizers, mounts, wiring, transfer switch -- will end up being the majority.
  - kragen 1y ago
    Maybe you should figure out how to do without some of it. You don't need MPPT optimization if buying more panels is cheaper. You don't need much battery if you run the washer in the daytime and use thermal storage to heat or cool the house at night. You don't need a transfer switch if you don't connect the solar to the grid outlets. You don't need inverters if you run things on 48V DC, which also greatly reduces the safety risks of wiring problems. I think Joey's house has DC appliances, though I don't remember.
    - MichaelNolan 1y ago
      What is the safety benefit of 48v? I am not an electrician, but I just finished diy/installing a 48v system, and when I was doing some research I read the opposite. 48v is *cheaper* since you don’t need as thick wires, but *more dangerous* since it has a higher chance of arc faults and the voltage is sufficiently high that it can cross the skin barrier and kill you. Though all three are pretty safe as long as you buy the appropriate equipment, and take reasonable precautions when installing it.
      - kragen 1y ago
        DC has a higher danger of arc faults than AC, and 48V is enough to sustain a short arc. But 48Vdc has less danger of either shock or arc faults than 120Vdc, and DC has a lower risk of shock than AC, because it still usually can't drive enough current through your skin to kill you. But you are correct that people can and do die from 48Vdc shocks, for example when their welding gloves are soaked with sweat or they're immersed in water. You need thicker wires with 48V than with 120V or especially 240V, and the higher currents required at 48V can create more risk of fire from overheating conductors, for example in a wire that's too thin or a spring contact in an outlet that's worn out. Perhaps you are implicitly comparing 48Vdc to 24Vdc, 12Vdc, or 6Vdc, rather than the 240Vac or 120Vac I was comparing it to. Those lower voltages do indeed need even thicker wires and pose even less risk of shock or arc faults than 48Vdc. I think 24V is the minimum to maintain an arc in air at atmospheric pressure, and it's really hard to get one started using a 24V supply; you need a high-frequency start circuit or a substantial amount of inductance in series. 48V is the maximum usually considered safe enough to not require compliance with any kind of electrical code; an expert electrician from North America once told me that it's in a category known to electricians as "bullshit wiring".
        MichaelNolan 1y ago
        Oh okay that makes sense. Yeah I misunderstood your original comment. I was comparing 48vdc to 24vdc and 12vdc, not 120 or 240 ac.
        mindslight 1y ago
        > DC has a lower risk of shock than AC, because it still usually can't drive enough current through your skin to kill you What? Common wisdom is that DC shock risk is worse than AC, as DC makes your muscles clench up and so it's harder to let go of whatever you grabbed. That "120Vac" is actually 170V peak though, which does increase shock risk for equivalent power transferred (maybe this is what you meant?).
        kragen 1y ago
        No, AC also makes your muscles clench up, and it's even worse. At a given RMS voltage, AC is both more painful and more dangerous as a source of shocks. Edison was kind of right about that. It's complicated, though. If you're running a low-level current through your body for a long time, like in the neighborhood of a milliamp, DC is much worse because it migrates your electrolytes around. And if you're using metal electrodes it might be migrating the metal from the anode into your body. So TENS units are strictly AC, with no DC bias permitted.
    - sagarm 1y ago
      The most practical version of this is a DC solar-heat pump setup, but the number of people that would choose that over a more complex solution is limited IMO.
epistasis 1y ago
Wow, that's fantastic pricing. Globally, the average is $0.089/W, in the US, $0.27/W: https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3m3md7koglk2v https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3m3md7k...
- buckle8017 1y ago
  This lady makes the error of taking about California as having a grid. For contracting purposes it does. For grid stability purposes it does not.
  - epistasis 1y ago
    Your pedantry is incorrect, and does not reflect usage of experts.
    - buckle8017 1y ago
      You're wrong and should feel bad for down voting me.
      - epistasis 1y ago
        I didn't downvote you, and wouldn't if I could! I can't downvote my direct replies. As for being "wrong," you're insisting that there's a narrow definition of a term when in general practice it is not used that way, and where the current usage causes zero confusion. You may be trying to change usage, but telling people "you're wrong" when they are not is not a convincing way. Showing that the existing usage of terms causes confusion might me more convincing, but it's hard.
rjdj377dhabsn 1y ago
That's still a lot higher than what I paid in SE Asia 2 years ago. I got new 550w panels delivered for $65 each. And of course installation is incredibly cheap here. $50 total in labor for 10 panels on a quite high roof. I don't remember the costs of the mounting hardware, but it was reasonable as well.

SignatureSolar has panels for $0.25/w. The tariffs are a nothing burger. If you're paying someone else to do it, the panels will likely be <10% of the cost.

by sagarm 1y ago

SignatureSolar has panels for $0.25/w. The tariffs are a nothing burger. If you're paying someone else to do it, the panels will likely be <10% of the cost.

kragen 1y ago

That's still 150% higher than the wholesale price overseas, and maybe if paying someone to install an appliance costs 9× more than the appliance does, you should think about doing it yourself.

sagarm 1y ago
Oh yeah, DIY is the way to go. But even for a DIY project the other stuff you need -- inverters, batteries, optimizers, mounts, wiring, transfer switch -- will end up being the majority.
- kragen 1y ago
  Maybe you should figure out how to do without some of it. You don't need MPPT optimization if buying more panels is cheaper. You don't need much battery if you run the washer in the daytime and use thermal storage to heat or cool the house at night. You don't need a transfer switch if you don't connect the solar to the grid outlets. You don't need inverters if you run things on 48V DC, which also greatly reduces the safety risks of wiring problems. I think Joey's house has DC appliances, though I don't remember.
  - MichaelNolan 1y ago
    What is the safety benefit of 48v? I am not an electrician, but I just finished diy/installing a 48v system, and when I was doing some research I read the opposite. 48v is *cheaper* since you don’t need as thick wires, but *more dangerous* since it has a higher chance of arc faults and the voltage is sufficiently high that it can cross the skin barrier and kill you. Though all three are pretty safe as long as you buy the appropriate equipment, and take reasonable precautions when installing it.
    - kragen 1y ago
      DC has a higher danger of arc faults than AC, and 48V is enough to sustain a short arc. But 48Vdc has less danger of either shock or arc faults than 120Vdc, and DC has a lower risk of shock than AC, because it still usually can't drive enough current through your skin to kill you. But you are correct that people can and do die from 48Vdc shocks, for example when their welding gloves are soaked with sweat or they're immersed in water. You need thicker wires with 48V than with 120V or especially 240V, and the higher currents required at 48V can create more risk of fire from overheating conductors, for example in a wire that's too thin or a spring contact in an outlet that's worn out. Perhaps you are implicitly comparing 48Vdc to 24Vdc, 12Vdc, or 6Vdc, rather than the 240Vac or 120Vac I was comparing it to. Those lower voltages do indeed need even thicker wires and pose even less risk of shock or arc faults than 48Vdc. I think 24V is the minimum to maintain an arc in air at atmospheric pressure, and it's really hard to get one started using a 24V supply; you need a high-frequency start circuit or a substantial amount of inductance in series. 48V is the maximum usually considered safe enough to not require compliance with any kind of electrical code; an expert electrician from North America once told me that it's in a category known to electricians as "bullshit wiring".
      - MichaelNolan 1y ago
        Oh okay that makes sense. Yeah I misunderstood your original comment. I was comparing 48vdc to 24vdc and 12vdc, not 120 or 240 ac.
      - mindslight 1y ago
        > DC has a lower risk of shock than AC, because it still usually can't drive enough current through your skin to kill you What? Common wisdom is that DC shock risk is worse than AC, as DC makes your muscles clench up and so it's harder to let go of whatever you grabbed. That "120Vac" is actually 170V peak though, which does increase shock risk for equivalent power transferred (maybe this is what you meant?).
        kragen 1y ago
        No, AC also makes your muscles clench up, and it's even worse. At a given RMS voltage, AC is both more painful and more dangerous as a source of shocks. Edison was kind of right about that. It's complicated, though. If you're running a low-level current through your body for a long time, like in the neighborhood of a milliamp, DC is much worse because it migrates your electrolytes around. And if you're using metal electrodes it might be migrating the metal from the anode into your body. So TENS units are strictly AC, with no DC bias permitted.
  - sagarm 1y ago
    The most practical version of this is a DC solar-heat pump setup, but the number of people that would choose that over a more complex solution is limited IMO.

epistasis 1y ago

Wow, that's fantastic pricing. Globally, the average is $0.089/W, in the US, $0.27/W: https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3m3md7koglk2v https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3m3md7k...

buckle8017 1y ago
This lady makes the error of taking about California as having a grid. For contracting purposes it does. For grid stability purposes it does not.
- epistasis 1y ago
  Your pedantry is incorrect, and does not reflect usage of experts.
  - buckle8017 1y ago
    You're wrong and should feel bad for down voting me.
    - epistasis 1y ago
      I didn't downvote you, and wouldn't if I could! I can't downvote my direct replies. As for being "wrong," you're insisting that there's a narrow definition of a term when in general practice it is not used that way, and where the current usage causes zero confusion. You may be trying to change usage, but telling people "you're wrong" when they are not is not a convincing way. Showing that the existing usage of terms causes confusion might me more convincing, but it's hard.

rjdj377dhabsn 1y ago

That's still a lot higher than what I paid in SE Asia 2 years ago. I got new 550w panels delivered for $65 each. And of course installation is incredibly cheap here. $50 total in labor for 10 panels on a quite high roof. I don't remember the costs of the mounting hardware, but it was reasonable as well.