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Don't forget that the original Leaf pack was only 24 kWh. So if you assume a ~1000 full-equivalent-charge-cycles lifespan, then the large Gen2 62 kWh pack will

by floxy 1y ago

Don't forget that the original Leaf pack was only 24 kWh. So if you assume a ~1000 full-equivalent-charge-cycles lifespan, then the large Gen2 62 kWh pack will live 2.5 times longer than an original 24 kWh pack. If you average 3.5 miles/kWh, the 24 kWh battery will be expected to last somewhere around 84,000 miles. While the 62 kWh pack will last for 217,000 miles. https://coolienergy.com/lfp-vs-nmc-batteries-the-science-behind-cycle-life-safety/ https://coolienergy.com/lfp-vs-nmc-batteries-the-science-beh...

adrianN 1y ago
Why would you only assume 1000 cycles? Is the chemistry that bad? The LFP battery on my balcony is rated for 5000 cycles iirc.
- Moto7451 1y ago
  LFP does have a lot more cycles in them by the nature of the chemistry. However EV grade NMC aren’t terrible either. Depth of discharge and charge rate affect LFP specifically in such a way that if you keep them a good margin above cutoff voltage, relatively cool (60C and under, and do 1C and lower charging you can get 10,000 cycles per their data sheets. The same sheets will also list lower cycle counts for harder use that lines up with the standards used for earlier cells. Basically I think we’ll find a lot of gently to moderately used hardware will last a long time. Whatever a believable use case looks like will probably end up on those data sheets and it wouldn’t surprise me if we see 15,000 and 20,000 cycles advertised for cells intended in low charge and discharge use cases (probably not cars but maybe home energy storage). My Taycan has an ongoing battery issue relating to LG Pouch cells but its construction rather than composition that is the culprit. The same compositions from LG in prismatic and cylindrical models, the only models they sell now, so far haven’t been a mess for car makers.
  - jopsen 1y ago
    We did 12.000 km in our id.4 last year. I suspect it'll die due to rust. But yes, might take a while. Even in Denmark where we salt the roads in a winter.
bryanlarsen 1y ago
This is a big reason why hybrid's are generally a bad idea. Their batteries wear out a lot quicker than the batteries on EV's.
- floxy 1y ago
  The batteries in a hybrid are much smaller (~1.3 kWh for a Prius), and so cost much less to replace.
  - bryanlarsen 1y ago
    The vast majority of EV owners will spend $0 to replace their batteries since the batteries last longer than the rest of the car does. Edit: part of that is that a Prius with 250,000 miles needing its second battery replacement is still a valuable car with a reasonable expectation of a lot more miles. OTOH a Tesla at 250,000 miles needing its first battery replacement... Similarly Chrysler hybrid owners spend less money on battery replacements than Toyota hybrid owners. Not a compliment, it means they're scrapping their cars earlier.
    - thejazzman 1y ago
      My 2015 Model as’ battery went the day the warranty ended and so they gave me a trash refurbished one “half price” for $8k This low maintenance cost thing is BS once something actually goes wrong. And it’s awfully frustrating / sus when it happens the moment the warranty ends My 2017’s HV fuse went just days before the warranty ended. They tried to charge me $330 for that planned part. These things aren’t cheap.

by floxy 1y ago

adrianN 1y ago

Why would you only assume 1000 cycles? Is the chemistry that bad? The LFP battery on my balcony is rated for 5000 cycles iirc.

Moto7451 1y ago
LFP does have a lot more cycles in them by the nature of the chemistry. However EV grade NMC aren’t terrible either. Depth of discharge and charge rate affect LFP specifically in such a way that if you keep them a good margin above cutoff voltage, relatively cool (60C and under, and do 1C and lower charging you can get 10,000 cycles per their data sheets. The same sheets will also list lower cycle counts for harder use that lines up with the standards used for earlier cells. Basically I think we’ll find a lot of gently to moderately used hardware will last a long time. Whatever a believable use case looks like will probably end up on those data sheets and it wouldn’t surprise me if we see 15,000 and 20,000 cycles advertised for cells intended in low charge and discharge use cases (probably not cars but maybe home energy storage). My Taycan has an ongoing battery issue relating to LG Pouch cells but its construction rather than composition that is the culprit. The same compositions from LG in prismatic and cylindrical models, the only models they sell now, so far haven’t been a mess for car makers.
- jopsen 1y ago
  We did 12.000 km in our id.4 last year. I suspect it'll die due to rust. But yes, might take a while. Even in Denmark where we salt the roads in a winter.

bryanlarsen 1y ago

This is a big reason why hybrid's are generally a bad idea. Their batteries wear out a lot quicker than the batteries on EV's.

floxy 1y ago
The batteries in a hybrid are much smaller (~1.3 kWh for a Prius), and so cost much less to replace.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  The vast majority of EV owners will spend $0 to replace their batteries since the batteries last longer than the rest of the car does. Edit: part of that is that a Prius with 250,000 miles needing its second battery replacement is still a valuable car with a reasonable expectation of a lot more miles. OTOH a Tesla at 250,000 miles needing its first battery replacement... Similarly Chrysler hybrid owners spend less money on battery replacements than Toyota hybrid owners. Not a compliment, it means they're scrapping their cars earlier.
  - thejazzman 1y ago
    My 2015 Model as’ battery went the day the warranty ended and so they gave me a trash refurbished one “half price” for $8k This low maintenance cost thing is BS once something actually goes wrong. And it’s awfully frustrating / sus when it happens the moment the warranty ends My 2017’s HV fuse went just days before the warranty ended. They tried to charge me $330 for that planned part. These things aren’t cheap.