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I don't mind that the Macbooks only have USB-C ports. Unlike many PCs, where the USB-C ports can't be used for charging, or can't be used for high-speed data tr

I don't mind that the Macbooks only have USB-C ports. Unlike many PCs, where the USB-C ports can't be used for charging, or can't be used for high-speed data transfer, or can't be used for external displays, or can't be used by certain software that only speaks USB 2.0, etc., the Macbooks let any USB-C port do anything. It's a forward-thinking decision, even if it was primarily made for aesthetic reasons. What I do mind is that there's only 3 of them.

wingworks 1y ago
I only have 2 USB-C ports, and most of the time I have nothing plugged in (but power). Sometimes ethernet USB-C when moving large files.
ndiddy 1y ago
The transition era was certainly annoying, but now that it's over I think the Mac experience is objectively worse. My PC laptop has 2 USB-C ports that can be used for charging, display, 40 Gbps transfer, etc., just like my Macbook Air. The difference is that the PC also has 2 USB-A ports and an HDMI port. This means that I'm able to plug in a flash drive or connect an external display without having to remember to bring a dongle with me.
- kbolino 1y ago
  I largely agree that PCs have caught up feature-wise, but because they took longer to get there, I still have a couple crappy USB-C ports on PCs that are otherwise fine. The problem with the 2 USB-C ports on modern PC laptops is that one of them pretty much has to be reserved for the charger, whereas the MBP has a MagSafe port that you can charge with instead. So it really only feels like you have one USB-C port and the other ports are just there as a consolation. That might work out to roughly equal, but I don't think it leaves the Mac off worse. I don't hate the dongles so much though. It wouldn't have hurt to have some USB-A and HDMI on the MBP--the Minis can pull it off, so clearly the hardware is capable--but more (Thunderbolt) USB-C would still be the best option IMO. USB-A (definitely) and HDMI (probably) will eventually be relics someday, even if they are here for a little while longer.
- philistine 1y ago
  Can those USB-C ports charge your battery if it is completely empty?
  - ndiddy 1y ago
    Yes, they're the only charging ports on the laptop.
- stetrain 1y ago
  The current Macbook Pro design also includes an HDMI port.
wslh 1y ago
Without trying to be pedantic, not all USB-C ports on Apple computers support Thunderbolt.
- kbolino 1y ago
  I haven't encountered this, but I've also only used the Apple Silicon devices. This might explain why there are so few ports, though: Thunderbolt is basically PCIe and has AFAIK direct lanes to the CPU; more full-featured ports = more PCIe lanes = much more complexity/expense.
  - wslh 1y ago
    The difference is in the desktop systems. That's where there are USB-C ports without Thunderbolt (e.g. Mac Mini).
    - kbolino 1y ago
      Damn, you're right. I have an M1 Mac Mini and both ports are Thunderbolt. I recall, and Wikipedia corroborates, that the M2 Mac Mini could come with either two or four ports, but all were Thunderbolt. Now though, the M4 ones, besides getting an awful facelift, also seem to have sacrificed one Thunderbolt port (and both USB-A ports?!) to "gain" two non-Thunderbolt USB-C ports. What a terrible trade IMO.
antod 1y ago
Didn't they have some issues when you tried charging from the left side ports? Eg overheating and throttling etc.
- PlunderBunny 1y ago
  There are some models of MacBook Pro where one side has more 'thermal headroom' than the other side. I have one of those models, and I can't remember which side it is.
numpad0 1y ago
I forgot where I read it, but there's apparently a Jobs policy of "one standard and two proprietary ports" or something, so to allow data to be ingested easily and freely shared inside Apple ecosystem, but not exported back out to the outside world with same ease. Which is like, a great way to subsidize junk USB hubs...? But for sure they love following through with policies.
- kalleboo 1y ago
  That is complete BS, Macs have never had any proprietary data ports on them. Serial, SCSI, Ethernet, USB, FireWire, Thunderbolt, USB-C have all been standards.
  - astrange 1y ago
    Well there was a proprietary Ethernet port for a while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Attachment_Unit_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Attachment_Unit_Interfac...
  - buescher 1y ago
    And technically (the best way, right?) there's a whole thing to suss out between AppleTalk, 422, and LocalTalk, hahahahahah, but it's effectively as proprietary as PS/2 ports were, until they weren't. And ADB was 100% proprietary iirc, but I'm not going to look it up for you.
    - kalleboo 1y ago
      TBF, Apple did publish public standards for LocalTalk and AppleTalk and there was third-party hardware that implemented it (including stuff like switches that Apple never implemented themselves) ADB was definitely proprietary, but arguably it wasn't a data port, nobody used ADB to output data.
  - numpad0 1y ago
    Apple serial port used proprietary Apple connectors. Apple SCSI ports used nonstandard Apple connectors. Apple Ethernet port was just Ethernet, except Macs preferred AppleTalk for networking, which was a purported competitor to Ethernet. Apple USB port was just USB, except they were among the firsts, so it was kind of ex-proprietary. Apple FireWire was just IEEE1394, except(combine Ethernet and USB) Apple Thunderbolt was(combine all above) Apple USB-C is(combine all above)
Nextgrid 1y ago
USB-C connectors are much less reliable than their predecessors due to their design though. I have several connectors that failed, either they no longer grip the cable securely or they just lose contact randomly. I'm sure it's handy for mobile devices where size and versatility trumps everything, but on laptop/desktop machines where longer-term usage is expected I would prefer something more reliable.
- kbolino 1y ago
  Are you comparing USB-C to its direct predecessors, things like (micro-)USB-A/B, (mini-)HDMI, and (mini-)DP, or to more distant ancestors like PS/2 and D-sub/VGA/DVI?
  - Nextgrid 1y ago
    Comparing to USB-A specifically. C is absolutely better than the micro/mini variants, but not the full-size ports.
    - kbolino 1y ago
      Interesting. I can see how USB-A has better friction/grip in the port (when made properly anyway), but I can't say it has better longevity; I've broken plenty of USB-A connectors and even ports. I am also glad to be rid of the "which way is up" dance, and I don't think anyone has shed any tears for the loss of USB-B.
      - Nextgrid 1y ago
        USB-A has much larger pins, meaning it will continue to work even if slightly damaged. USB-C has much higher pin density so the slightest misalignment (due to damage or just bad manufacturing tolerances) causes dropouts. I'm just salty because I will have to replace either the ports on my Macbook or my USB-C wireless headphone receiver (both are a pricey endeavor, not to mention the downtime of having the laptop shipped for repair) just for the same issue to most likely reoccur a year down the line since it wasn't a result of any kind of misuse (both devices are exclusively used in an office environment and otherwise in brand new condition).
FireBeyond 1y ago
Wuh? On all but the top tier MBPs, USB C ports on Macs have different specs for data transfer (often the ones on the right of the machine will have half the transfer speed).
- kbolino 1y ago
  As far as I can tell, every single Apple Silicon MBP has all ports at full speed. The early Apple Silicon Mac Minis (M1, M2) also had this arrangement. However, as noted elsewhere, this has changed (they now have 3 Thunderbolt ports and 2 non-Thunderbolt USB-C ports). The Intel MBPs had more variance, but they only had the 2+2 configurations in 2016 and 2017. The 2018 and 2019 generations had all full-speed ports.
johnisgood 1y ago
> Unlike many PCs, where the USB-C ports can't be used for charging, or can't be used for high-speed data transfer I call bullshit on this. Ever since I am alive, I could always use the USB ports on my motherboard and PC case for charging and data transfer.
- kbolino 1y ago
  I have a laptop with USB-C ports which cannot charge from them at all. Instead, it has a DC barrel connector, and that is the only accepted charging source. That same laptop, and a desktop PC I have, do not support USB-PD over USB-C, so only 5V/500mA trickle charging is supported. This isn't the charging direction I was thinking of originally, but since this seems to be the direction you're thinking of, it's worth mentioning. Also, neither of these ports are Thunderbolt. I'm pretty sure they are USB 3.0 at least, which doesn't have terrible speed to be fair, but still is somewhat limiting at least as far as the laptop is concerned since it means there's no way to get PCIe speeds. Granted, this is ~2019 era hardware, but nevertheless the USB-C ports are not nearly as useful as they could be.
  - johnisgood 1y ago
    I read it as "USC-B ports can't be used for charging" (this is exactly what was said), but if I plug my phone into these ports, my phone will charge, and there can be data transfer as well.
    - kbolino 1y ago
      Yes, and that's not what I meant. I'm sorry for the confusion, but I have clarified already. I meant charging the host from the peripheral, which could be a wall charger, a battery pack, a monitor, etc. I was thinking of laptops when I wrote the original comment. I also elaborated that, even when we consider the other direction, i.e. host-to-peripheral charging, many USB-C ports on PCs only provide baseline USB power levels (aka "slow charging"). The implication (that I now make explicit) is that such poor charging performance would not justify removing all other ports from the computer. I didn't mention this originally, because I didn't think of it then, but now that you have brought it up, I would add it to my argument. The crux of that argument was: USB-C as the only port type is acceptable as long as those USB-C ports are full featured. That means (again, to be explicit) that they support Thunderbolt, DisplayPort, and bidirectional USB-PD (aka "fast charging"), though obviously one of those directions is not applicable to hosts that have no battery (e.g. desktops). In other words, if the USB-C ports are no better than USB-A ports, then they are not good enough to take the place of other, dedicated port types.

wingworks 1y ago

I only have 2 USB-C ports, and most of the time I have nothing plugged in (but power). Sometimes ethernet USB-C when moving large files.

ndiddy 1y ago

The transition era was certainly annoying, but now that it's over I think the Mac experience is objectively worse. My PC laptop has 2 USB-C ports that can be used for charging, display, 40 Gbps transfer, etc., just like my Macbook Air. The difference is that the PC also has 2 USB-A ports and an HDMI port. This means that I'm able to plug in a flash drive or connect an external display without having to remember to bring a dongle with me.

kbolino 1y ago
I largely agree that PCs have caught up feature-wise, but because they took longer to get there, I still have a couple crappy USB-C ports on PCs that are otherwise fine. The problem with the 2 USB-C ports on modern PC laptops is that one of them pretty much has to be reserved for the charger, whereas the MBP has a MagSafe port that you can charge with instead. So it really only feels like you have one USB-C port and the other ports are just there as a consolation. That might work out to roughly equal, but I don't think it leaves the Mac off worse. I don't hate the dongles so much though. It wouldn't have hurt to have some USB-A and HDMI on the MBP--the Minis can pull it off, so clearly the hardware is capable--but more (Thunderbolt) USB-C would still be the best option IMO. USB-A (definitely) and HDMI (probably) will eventually be relics someday, even if they are here for a little while longer.
philistine 1y ago
Can those USB-C ports charge your battery if it is completely empty?
- ndiddy 1y ago
  Yes, they're the only charging ports on the laptop.
stetrain 1y ago
The current Macbook Pro design also includes an HDMI port.

wslh 1y ago

Without trying to be pedantic, not all USB-C ports on Apple computers support Thunderbolt.

kbolino 1y ago
I haven't encountered this, but I've also only used the Apple Silicon devices. This might explain why there are so few ports, though: Thunderbolt is basically PCIe and has AFAIK direct lanes to the CPU; more full-featured ports = more PCIe lanes = much more complexity/expense.
- wslh 1y ago
  The difference is in the desktop systems. That's where there are USB-C ports without Thunderbolt (e.g. Mac Mini).
  - kbolino 1y ago
    Damn, you're right. I have an M1 Mac Mini and both ports are Thunderbolt. I recall, and Wikipedia corroborates, that the M2 Mac Mini could come with either two or four ports, but all were Thunderbolt. Now though, the M4 ones, besides getting an awful facelift, also seem to have sacrificed one Thunderbolt port (and both USB-A ports?!) to "gain" two non-Thunderbolt USB-C ports. What a terrible trade IMO.

antod 1y ago

Didn't they have some issues when you tried charging from the left side ports? Eg overheating and throttling etc.

PlunderBunny 1y ago
There are some models of MacBook Pro where one side has more 'thermal headroom' than the other side. I have one of those models, and I can't remember which side it is.

numpad0 1y ago

I forgot where I read it, but there's apparently a Jobs policy of "one standard and two proprietary ports" or something, so to allow data to be ingested easily and freely shared inside Apple ecosystem, but not exported back out to the outside world with same ease. Which is like, a great way to subsidize junk USB hubs...? But for sure they love following through with policies.

kalleboo 1y ago
That is complete BS, Macs have never had any proprietary data ports on them. Serial, SCSI, Ethernet, USB, FireWire, Thunderbolt, USB-C have all been standards.
- astrange 1y ago
  Well there was a proprietary Ethernet port for a while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Attachment_Unit_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Attachment_Unit_Interfac...
- buescher 1y ago
  And technically (the best way, right?) there's a whole thing to suss out between AppleTalk, 422, and LocalTalk, hahahahahah, but it's effectively as proprietary as PS/2 ports were, until they weren't. And ADB was 100% proprietary iirc, but I'm not going to look it up for you.
  - kalleboo 1y ago
    TBF, Apple did publish public standards for LocalTalk and AppleTalk and there was third-party hardware that implemented it (including stuff like switches that Apple never implemented themselves) ADB was definitely proprietary, but arguably it wasn't a data port, nobody used ADB to output data.
- numpad0 1y ago
  Apple serial port used proprietary Apple connectors. Apple SCSI ports used nonstandard Apple connectors. Apple Ethernet port was just Ethernet, except Macs preferred AppleTalk for networking, which was a purported competitor to Ethernet. Apple USB port was just USB, except they were among the firsts, so it was kind of ex-proprietary. Apple FireWire was just IEEE1394, except(combine Ethernet and USB) Apple Thunderbolt was(combine all above) Apple USB-C is(combine all above)

Nextgrid 1y ago

USB-C connectors are much less reliable than their predecessors due to their design though. I have several connectors that failed, either they no longer grip the cable securely or they just lose contact randomly. I'm sure it's handy for mobile devices where size and versatility trumps everything, but on laptop/desktop machines where longer-term usage is expected I would prefer something more reliable.

kbolino 1y ago
Are you comparing USB-C to its direct predecessors, things like (micro-)USB-A/B, (mini-)HDMI, and (mini-)DP, or to more distant ancestors like PS/2 and D-sub/VGA/DVI?
- Nextgrid 1y ago
  Comparing to USB-A specifically. C is absolutely better than the micro/mini variants, but not the full-size ports.
  - kbolino 1y ago
    Interesting. I can see how USB-A has better friction/grip in the port (when made properly anyway), but I can't say it has better longevity; I've broken plenty of USB-A connectors and even ports. I am also glad to be rid of the "which way is up" dance, and I don't think anyone has shed any tears for the loss of USB-B.
    - Nextgrid 1y ago
      USB-A has much larger pins, meaning it will continue to work even if slightly damaged. USB-C has much higher pin density so the slightest misalignment (due to damage or just bad manufacturing tolerances) causes dropouts. I'm just salty because I will have to replace either the ports on my Macbook or my USB-C wireless headphone receiver (both are a pricey endeavor, not to mention the downtime of having the laptop shipped for repair) just for the same issue to most likely reoccur a year down the line since it wasn't a result of any kind of misuse (both devices are exclusively used in an office environment and otherwise in brand new condition).

FireBeyond 1y ago

Wuh? On all but the top tier MBPs, USB C ports on Macs have different specs for data transfer (often the ones on the right of the machine will have half the transfer speed).

kbolino 1y ago
As far as I can tell, every single Apple Silicon MBP has all ports at full speed. The early Apple Silicon Mac Minis (M1, M2) also had this arrangement. However, as noted elsewhere, this has changed (they now have 3 Thunderbolt ports and 2 non-Thunderbolt USB-C ports). The Intel MBPs had more variance, but they only had the 2+2 configurations in 2016 and 2017. The 2018 and 2019 generations had all full-speed ports.

johnisgood 1y ago

> Unlike many PCs, where the USB-C ports can't be used for charging, or can't be used for high-speed data transfer I call bullshit on this. Ever since I am alive, I could always use the USB ports on my motherboard and PC case for charging and data transfer.

kbolino 1y ago
I have a laptop with USB-C ports which cannot charge from them at all. Instead, it has a DC barrel connector, and that is the only accepted charging source. That same laptop, and a desktop PC I have, do not support USB-PD over USB-C, so only 5V/500mA trickle charging is supported. This isn't the charging direction I was thinking of originally, but since this seems to be the direction you're thinking of, it's worth mentioning. Also, neither of these ports are Thunderbolt. I'm pretty sure they are USB 3.0 at least, which doesn't have terrible speed to be fair, but still is somewhat limiting at least as far as the laptop is concerned since it means there's no way to get PCIe speeds. Granted, this is ~2019 era hardware, but nevertheless the USB-C ports are not nearly as useful as they could be.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  I read it as "USC-B ports can't be used for charging" (this is exactly what was said), but if I plug my phone into these ports, my phone will charge, and there can be data transfer as well.
  - kbolino 1y ago
    Yes, and that's not what I meant. I'm sorry for the confusion, but I have clarified already. I meant charging the host from the peripheral, which could be a wall charger, a battery pack, a monitor, etc. I was thinking of laptops when I wrote the original comment. I also elaborated that, even when we consider the other direction, i.e. host-to-peripheral charging, many USB-C ports on PCs only provide baseline USB power levels (aka "slow charging"). The implication (that I now make explicit) is that such poor charging performance would not justify removing all other ports from the computer. I didn't mention this originally, because I didn't think of it then, but now that you have brought it up, I would add it to my argument. The crux of that argument was: USB-C as the only port type is acceptable as long as those USB-C ports are full featured. That means (again, to be explicit) that they support Thunderbolt, DisplayPort, and bidirectional USB-PD (aka "fast charging"), though obviously one of those directions is not applicable to hosts that have no battery (e.g. desktops). In other words, if the USB-C ports are no better than USB-A ports, then they are not good enough to take the place of other, dedicated port types.