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Do you not see this as inevitable? It may be the case that money does 'trickle down' but it most certainly gushes upward. And so when the government prints mass

Do you not see this as inevitable? It may be the case that money does 'trickle down' but it most certainly gushes upward. And so when the government prints massive sums of money, that's effectively just indirect handouts that end up going to the wealthiest, enabling them to gobble up even more of the overall economy and, in turn, enabling them to grow even wealthier. The year that the US gained the ability to start 'printing' arbitrary amounts of money is 1971, prior to that we were externally constrained by Bretton Woods. This [1] site is nothing but a bunch of various graphs of all sorts of data. That point is a massive inflection point in just about everything awful that's happened to the country. [1] - https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

wqaatwt 1y ago
It’s complicated. The gold standard in general is an awful system outside of stagnant economies (you end up with deflation + endless boom and bust cycles). Banning everyone domestically from owning gold and then Bretton Woods massively propping up the US monetary system helped. But eventually West Europeans caught up with it and what happened was hardly avoidable.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  The Minneapolis Fed calculated CPI levels since 1800 here. [1] In the 150 years from 1800 to 1950, the CPI never shifted more than 25 points from the starting base of 51. From 1971 to current, it increased by more than 800 points. Keep in mind all the incredible events that 1800 to 1950 covers - World Wars 1 and 2, the Civil War, Great Depression, Spanish Flu, and more. And prices always stayed extremely stable. Then we give the government the ability to print money at their discretion and money just starts inflating endlessly to the point of having no real meaning all the while wealth inequality grows to unimaginably high levels, to the point that the richest American now has personal wealth greater than the entire GDP of America in the 50s. So you clearly don't just inevitably end up with deflation. Before 1971 the overall economic system was quite stable. Obviously there booms and busts, but it's not like the current system has changed that. Instead we now just have constant busts which are stabilized only by the government dumping obscene amounts of money into the economy which results makes all the economic and related problems we have even worse. And it's all obviously building up to a completely catastrophic bust that'll likely make the Great Depression look like the 'good ole days.' [1] - https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator/consumer-price-index-1800- https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/infl...
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    > CPI levels since 1800 here. [1] In the 150 years from 1800 to 1950, the CPI never shifted more than 25 points from the starting base of 51. Yes and there were extreme swings in between. Predictable 2% inflation is better for the economy than unpredictable up and down jumps in prices of 10-20% over a decade or two. > Keep in mind all the incredible events that 1800 to 1950 covers You haven’t actually looked at actual charts or yearly figures have you? It was a roller coaster. I certainly agree about your points on inequality etc. but Fiat money is not the cause of that itself. Monetary and fiscal policy failures are. > Before 1971 the overall economic system was quite stable Yes, for several decades. After the roller coaster of ~1770 to ~1950.
    - somenameforme 1y ago
      Did you look at the data? Over 150 years prices literally never once increased (relative to the baseline of 50) more or less than 50%. And outside of the Civil War and World Wars annual changes would have hardly been noticeable. In fact in the overwhelming majority of years there was no change at all! The CPI was so stable that I was even able to pinpoint a major event I had forgotten about (war of 1812) when looking at the data because it was one of the relatively rare periods of instability. Then in 1971 things went insane and we went from a base index of 121 to 942! And yes this does directly cause inequality in a wide array of different ways! The most obvious is the 'gush up' effect as already mentioned. Another way is that it makes it much easier to undermine labor. So for instance many people would be relatively happy to be earning 25% more than they were 5 years ago. In reality? They've been given a paycut because that's not even enough to keep up with inflation, and there's 0 chance of it going any direction but up from here. So they've gotten poorer with a smile on their face. Hence why real wages are practically flat since 1971. It also turns money itself into a somewhat toxic asset and motivates the hoarding of things. For instance Bill Gates is the largest private owner of farmland. By contrast lower income types often think starting a saving accounts, or (ugh...) a cd savings account is a fiscally responsible thing to do. And before 1971 this would have been 100% true. But now a days it's basically a scam, because you're never going to get interest rates that beat inflation, because nobody wants your rapidly devaluing money. They'd be far better off putting their money into precious metals, land, or basically anything to try to escape the inflation trap. But lower income types often need more access to their funds on demand in case e.g. their car breaks down. So it's a system that very much punishes lower income types.

wqaatwt 1y ago

It’s complicated. The gold standard in general is an awful system outside of stagnant economies (you end up with deflation + endless boom and bust cycles). Banning everyone domestically from owning gold and then Bretton Woods massively propping up the US monetary system helped. But eventually West Europeans caught up with it and what happened was hardly avoidable.

somenameforme 1y ago
The Minneapolis Fed calculated CPI levels since 1800 here. [1] In the 150 years from 1800 to 1950, the CPI never shifted more than 25 points from the starting base of 51. From 1971 to current, it increased by more than 800 points. Keep in mind all the incredible events that 1800 to 1950 covers - World Wars 1 and 2, the Civil War, Great Depression, Spanish Flu, and more. And prices always stayed extremely stable. Then we give the government the ability to print money at their discretion and money just starts inflating endlessly to the point of having no real meaning all the while wealth inequality grows to unimaginably high levels, to the point that the richest American now has personal wealth greater than the entire GDP of America in the 50s. So you clearly don't just inevitably end up with deflation. Before 1971 the overall economic system was quite stable. Obviously there booms and busts, but it's not like the current system has changed that. Instead we now just have constant busts which are stabilized only by the government dumping obscene amounts of money into the economy which results makes all the economic and related problems we have even worse. And it's all obviously building up to a completely catastrophic bust that'll likely make the Great Depression look like the 'good ole days.' [1] - https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator/consumer-price-index-1800- https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/infl...
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  > CPI levels since 1800 here. [1] In the 150 years from 1800 to 1950, the CPI never shifted more than 25 points from the starting base of 51. Yes and there were extreme swings in between. Predictable 2% inflation is better for the economy than unpredictable up and down jumps in prices of 10-20% over a decade or two. > Keep in mind all the incredible events that 1800 to 1950 covers You haven’t actually looked at actual charts or yearly figures have you? It was a roller coaster. I certainly agree about your points on inequality etc. but Fiat money is not the cause of that itself. Monetary and fiscal policy failures are. > Before 1971 the overall economic system was quite stable Yes, for several decades. After the roller coaster of ~1770 to ~1950.
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    Did you look at the data? Over 150 years prices literally never once increased (relative to the baseline of 50) more or less than 50%. And outside of the Civil War and World Wars annual changes would have hardly been noticeable. In fact in the overwhelming majority of years there was no change at all! The CPI was so stable that I was even able to pinpoint a major event I had forgotten about (war of 1812) when looking at the data because it was one of the relatively rare periods of instability. Then in 1971 things went insane and we went from a base index of 121 to 942! And yes this does directly cause inequality in a wide array of different ways! The most obvious is the 'gush up' effect as already mentioned. Another way is that it makes it much easier to undermine labor. So for instance many people would be relatively happy to be earning 25% more than they were 5 years ago. In reality? They've been given a paycut because that's not even enough to keep up with inflation, and there's 0 chance of it going any direction but up from here. So they've gotten poorer with a smile on their face. Hence why real wages are practically flat since 1971. It also turns money itself into a somewhat toxic asset and motivates the hoarding of things. For instance Bill Gates is the largest private owner of farmland. By contrast lower income types often think starting a saving accounts, or (ugh...) a cd savings account is a fiscally responsible thing to do. And before 1971 this would have been 100% true. But now a days it's basically a scam, because you're never going to get interest rates that beat inflation, because nobody wants your rapidly devaluing money. They'd be far better off putting their money into precious metals, land, or basically anything to try to escape the inflation trap. But lower income types often need more access to their funds on demand in case e.g. their car breaks down. So it's a system that very much punishes lower income types.